Minor correction needed: Would you all change this back to the way it was before, when the Creed was used?--
"*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the complete, universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not exclusively to any particular visible denomination or doctrine."
Last time it used a phrase along the lines of 'and does not necessarily'. The Q & A post that explains it has this allowance:
"word catholic can be interpreted to mean"
The statement as it stands is a statement of protestant theology which does not leave itself open to the contrary view. All it needs to say is that either view is okay- rather than affirming what the Church absolutely is not (and thus supposing protestant positions). This is probably just something missed, but it would be important to correct it so that either view can be held. Thanks!
I'll have to poke around the dusty archives to see if I can pull that "old old old" one up and compare. The version used above is from 2006 when the Creed was up previously. It may take me a little while to find it in CF's attic.
I'm not necessarily opposed (as a matter of fact I didn't even think about it nor did it even come up when all the staff picked apart the Q&A...lol).
CaDan: The "C" was capitalized last time the Creed was if. If must nit-pick, I suppose....
This is the other version that I was able to fine quickly:
*The word "catholic" (literally, "universal") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination or institution.
I've changed it to this...I trust everyone is satisfied.
*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.
I've changed it to this...I trust everyone is satisfied.
*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.
I am sorry to be a pain but could we drop the phrase "or exclusively" and go with:
The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine."
I know this is a little pedantic at this point, but if we're going to go to the trouble of having theological guideposts that people *must* affirm to post here, it's important that they be technically accurate, or at least have it be very clear from the text itself that a technically accurate interpretation is within the realm of compliance.
We've seen too many times through the years where mods x, y, and z understand the issues and interpret things reasonably, but mod q wants to use a hyper-literal interpretation that wasn't what was intended but that technically is what a rule says. I could easy see a hypothetical mod q somewhere at some time decide that someone claiming there was only one Catholic Church was violating the rule because it said "not necessarily or exclusively" and the poster is being exclusive.
People may call that paranoid, but I've been around CF too many years now not to see this as a possibility.
*Or* we could always just simplify things and say anyone who wants to post and is willing to adhere to basic rules of civility and not troll or flame a give forum can post, rather than requiring a theology test as the price of admission. It's not like we're a Church, we're just a bunch of people talking. I know getting people to realize that is pretty much a lost cause, though... so let's stick to at least getting the theology test worded correctly.
So, I guess the staff is back to pretending that CF is a Church instead of a messagw board just so they can exclude people who aren't "Christian" enough for them.
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I believe it is fundamentally important for every Christian to be able to explain, when asked, what it is exactly that they believe; here is my own statement of faith:
A Christian is a person who willingly believes:
1. That the Universe was created by God.
(Genesis 1:1)
2. That the Bible is divinely inspired by God, and describes how we are to live our lives in a manner that is pleasing to God.
(Matthew 24:14)
3. That we are all sinners and as such, according to the Bible, are destined to go to hell.
(Romans 3:23)
4. That God came to earth in the person of Jesus Christ and promised that if we repent of our sins, and ask God through the power of the Holy Spirit to guide us through life according to His will, that we will have eternal life and a place with Him in Heaven. (John 3:16)
Nope!
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A great move-- though I don't expect anything will really change by this
This reflects my sentiments
I'm so glad to see something change back towards Orthodoxy!!
But in alot of the posts and threads from members, I see little
that will change becuz the same posters agreed with the creed before
just to post here, but are still unorthodox and in fact deny scripture as God's truth or as inerrant and support serious moral depravity.
It doesn't close the gaps for the majority of problematic issues we
currently experience (outside our much needed Congregational safe havens).
Tonks wrote this:
A long time ago many of us (for whom this is not the first rodeo) became very, very tired of the Catholic/Protestant wars, the nickel and diming of every decision.
Like clockwork the Nicene Creed discussion occurred every few months among the Admins...should we or shouldn't we. The two big sticking points were always the words "catholic" and "baptism" - for good reasons. 1) CF has always had a history of having the Creed having addenda to those two specific points and 2) they were *much* bigger sticking points for the Protestant staff than they were for the RCC/EO/OO staff. Likewise, this isn't a Catholic site, an Orthodox site, a Lutheran site, an Anglican site...etc...the words "catholic" and "baptism" are a concern for a great many folks.
The biggest problem I see at CF is btwn. Liberal vs. Conservative theology.
The two do not remotely mix.
I'm not sure this Creed would do anything to plug many -if any-
holes there & most will stay the same as it is right now. (at least where I frequent).
Then again, CF just may want it this way and like it.
I know it sounds so party pooper-ish and I'm sorry.
I'm still very glad for this change and thank everyone involved for the positive change in the right direction.
Last edited by Nadiine; 22nd May 2009 at 08:32 AM.
I am sorry to be a pain but could we drop the phrase "or exclusively" and go with
It is not changing. This isn't a debate over every word or comma - particularly as we've attempted to take into account the needs of all of CF's members. So, thanks for your input but this version is the final version.
I have some questions as to how this will be enforced. Since icon changes aren't going to be pursued (thank heavens), will people be warned/infracted if they post contrary to the Creed in the CO areas? Also, will debate on such things as the triune nature of God, etc. be allowed in the CO areas?
Also, who will be making the calls as to whether something is heterodox or not? I know that some things are fairly cut and dried, but others are not. For example, will Nestorianism be tolerated? What about semi-pelagianism?
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