| Origins Theology Forum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums. |  | 
20th May 2009, 07:42 PM
| | Gimme That Old Time Religion
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The only two things I think I've seen expressed are a moral problem (such as, if He intervenes at one point, why not at other points, such as saving a child from death), and a "style" problem - that once natural processes are set in motion, it might be somehow clumsy or undignified to have to "step in". Those two things seem to me easily answerable; so is there another problem I'm not thinking of? | 
20th May 2009, 07:43 PM
|  | I don't know anything 25  | | Join Date: 2nd November 2008 Location: Wales
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20th May 2009, 09:05 PM
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Reps: 12,567,898,174,147,644 (power: 12,567,898,174,166) | | Originally Posted by Chesterton I've seen scientific TE's disdain or dislike the idea of God intervening in natural processes. Why is that?
The only two things I think I've seen expressed are a moral problem (such as, if He intervenes at one point, why not at other points, such as saving a child from death), and a "style" problem - that once natural processes are set in motion, it might be somehow clumsy or undignified to have to "step in". Those two things seem to me easily answerable; so is there another problem I'm not thinking of?
I don't think either of these is the problem. We do think God intervened in natural process at various points in history. e.g. the miracles of the Exodus, Jesus' miracles, and above all the miracle of the resurrection.
I think you are looking at a question of definition. The point is that by definition an "intervention" of this sort is a miracle. And so by definition it is no longer natural process. Natural process is the absence of miracle. But it is not the absence of God's providential activity.
I think the heart of the question is this: "Are miracles necessary to keep natural process going?" Or "Are there entities which are now part of nature that no natural process could have brought into being?" Here is where I think the "science-minded" are inclined to answer in the negative on both scientific and theological grounds.
By contrast a proponent of intelligent design would answer the second question in the positive.
__________________ "Either we've got to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy - and then admit that we just don't wanna do it." Steve Colbert | 
21st May 2009, 11:21 PM
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| | Join Date: 6th March 2006
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Reps: 18,889,155,825,852,136 (power: 18,889,155,825,864) | | I don't know of any evolutionary creationists that have a problem with divine intervention. Gluadys provided several examples of miracles we can all agree on.
The problem comes with positing miracles when perfectly natural, testable, and demonstrable explanations are available. We don't need to cite instantaneous creation of individual lifeforms when a naturalistic process does a much better job of explaining the repeated patterns we see in God's creation. This is a lesson Christians learned with the Galileo Affair, though it seems some have since forgotten.
Actually, the relationship between a Christian's belief about origins and divine intervention is something I've been giving some thought to lately. It strikes me that there has been a disturbing trend among fundamentalist evangelicals to withhold medical treatment from their terminally ill loved ones while praying simply for divine intervention instead (faith healing). You can read about a number of recent cases here: Faith healing church parents charged over toddler's death | World news | The Guardian Judge rules family can't refuse chemo for boy - Yahoo! News Death by prayer - Isthmus | The Daily Page
My question, then, is the opposite to yours: Why do fundamentalist Christians insist so strongly on divine intervention when God has already blessed us with the means to account for both our physical origins and our physical well-being? It strikes me that the fundamentalist opposition to everything and anything produced by the sciences has become so overblown that it puts the minds, lives, and faith of our children in danger.
__________________ "There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well." -- creation scientist Dr. Todd Wood |  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |