Advice for Debating Non-WoF

victoryword · #1 15th May 2009, 02:49 PM

IF you are going to waste precious time debating non-wofers as I have been doing the past couple of weeks (time that I know would be better utilized in other areas), it helps to get a general grasp of of the different theological perspectives out there. No two anti-wofers or non-wofers are always alike.

In many cases some WoFers would rip each other apart on their varying theological perspectives. What unites many of them on the debate forum is their singleminded hatred of WoF. Arminian, Calvinist, and Liberal will work together in their united front against your beliefs. The Pharisees and Sadducees ahted each other and were divided but united when it came to their single point hatred of Jesus. Expect the same on the debate forum.

Word-Faithers who want to debate non-wofers have to learn to leave the WoF only world behind and get a grasp of what others actually believe. That requires reading material other than our favorite WoF books. You may even have to endure some serious pain when reading a perspective you know is unscriptural. On the other hand, you might actually learn some truths that are not necessarily taught among the WoF teachers.

Learn who you are debating and what you are debating. Remember that some hold to a view of God's sovereignty that dictates everything they will hate about WoF principles. Others actually do not accept all of the Bible as authoritative and that will also dictate their perspective and citing a plethora of Scripture is unconvincing to the one who questions the full authority of Scripture.

Just some thoughts.

didaskalos · #2 15th May 2009, 04:54 PM

For truth... Amen.

Much of the debating is only covering the superficial and surface differences.
The real differences are much much deeper and exist at the foundational levels.
You can spend years repairing the same roof problems if you want... but you are wasting your time if the real problems are in the foundation. The people you are debating have serious problems at the foundational level. They almost always lay their Christianity upon a layer of theistic dogma that is so entrenched and so pervasive in the church that rooting it out often requires long episodes of teaching followed by meditation. Essentially this theistic dogma made up of the "omni factors" creeps into their theology and upends the foundational elements of Christ, the cross, the gospel, and faith. Nothing is more destructive to the concept of faith than the erroneous theological teaching about sovereignty. Bottom line, they do not see Jesus, the Gospel, and the word as the declared will of God for us all. They essentially allow "the faith" to be overruled and qualified (and dis-qualified) by these theistic teachings... effectively pushing their "faith" back to a pre-law condition that can best be described as "Jobian."

"The lord has given, the lord hath taken away... blessed be the name of the Lord.'

"God may choose to save you from those things it is His will to save you from."

There is no place or need for a savior in this theology. They give the gospel lip service. But He is little more than a sin janitor in their faith. The longer I debate these folks, the more I see this non-christ gospel. There are long posts about the work of the Holy Spirit and how God is using this or that to bring people closer to Him. But fewer and fewer references to Jesus as THE one who has brought us all the way to the Father perfect. If this trend continues, I think these folks may wake up one day and see no need for a savior, a Lord, or a gospel. They have the Holy Spirit (changing them), their own suffering to purify them, and the God's mystical "plan" for their lives. One day they will wake up not needing Jesus.

Hence the "great falling away..."

ShaunJ · #3 15th May 2009, 05:49 PM

I refuse to debate it. I will not waste time dog chasing tail when I could be spending time in other areas.

For instance. If I take the time to show someone why they are healed using scriptural evidence, and they still reject it, then they have made their choice.

I'm also not going to run around every thread on this forum trying to prove everyone wrong. It's stupid.

Christians are too busy wounding each other. I would rather spend my time building up in the truths of scripture (in myself), so I can share God's healing to the unsaved.

But, that's just me.

KingZzub · #4 15th May 2009, 06:27 PM

beautiful posts both of you.

thanks for being around to inspire me more...

Supplanter · #5 15th May 2009, 09:40 PM

Well, I feel a burden for those who are in bondage and do not know who Jesus Christ truly is, I guess. And for me, it feels doubly sorrowful that some who call themselves Christians will not inherit eternal life, because that means that they have been deceived or have deceived themselves to the point that true repentance and salvation is unlikely, but not impossible.

So, whenever I debate or really just chat with those who do not believe the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I pray for them and that is really the most important thing I feel that I can do. I believe that if I encounter someone in life, no matter how brief that encounter may be then God means for me to pray for them, because honestly, nothing I say will change them. People have to obtain understanding for themselves.

And, of course, there are also those who impact me in a major way and offer me new insights on scripture and challenge me to live a holy life before God and man, even if they don't classify themselves as Word of Faith. I think that denominations are a plan of the devil really, but I have gained positive things from seeing the strengths of particular denominations in action by worshipping and ministering with them. However, I think our goal should be to come together into an understanding of the word of God and truly see ourselves as one body. As I mentioned in another post, there is really only one true dividing line. You are either a part of the Church or you are not. I don't really buy into the whole philosophy that just because we believe differently doesn't mean we aren't all Christians, because there comes a point when you believe so differently that you step over that line. And then there is also the problem of not living what you say you believe. Fact of the matter is that Christ should be manifested in us. When people look at us, all they should see is Christ. . .not that it doesn't take time to mature, but if you can't see Christ, if he is some distant God in the sky and not so intimate with you that He is a real person. Someone that you see, hear, touch even then maybe it is time to reevaluate. This is not to say that we don't sometimes feel distant from Christ, but it is not about what we feel. It's about what we know through the LIVING WORD of GOD.

So, my hope and intention and prayer is that debate/dialogue will bring understanding, even if we don't see it manifested. We should still have faith that it will be part of a transformation now or in the future. People may say one thing and profess to detest something, but at night, when they are lying awake at night, they are asking themselves if they are really right.

Sorry, for the tangents. Hope what I said makes sense.

Summary of my advice: Pray

J4Jesus · #6 15th May 2009, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by ShaunJ

I'm also not going to run around every thread on this forum trying to prove everyone wrong.........

Christians are too busy wounding each other. I would rather spend my time building up in the truths of scripture (in myself), so I can share God's healing to the unsaved.

But, that's just me.

Not just you, but me too

the.Sheepdog · #7 15th May 2009, 10:06 PM

what Shaun and J4 said. Why in the world would anyone want to waste time debating with someone you already know likes to fight also.

You want to do everyone a big favor? Repent from debating and fighting with other blood bought brothers. Try spending your time praying for those who may be unhappy in their walk, not bashing them with your superiority.

Believe me, when you debate with people and make sport of it you help no one and hurt us all.

victoryword · #8 16th May 2009, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by ShaunJ

I refuse to debate it. I will not waste time dog chasing tail when I could be spending time in other areas.

For instance. If I take the time to show someone why they are healed using scriptural evidence, and they still reject it, then they have made their choice.

I'm also not going to run around every thread on this forum trying to prove everyone wrong. It's stupid.

Christians are too busy wounding each other. I would rather spend my time building up in the truths of scripture (in myself), so I can share God's healing to the unsaved.

But, that's just me.

I agree with you which is why I stayed completely away from this forum up to a few weeks ago and will probably make my exit again soon. Unfortunately if I am going to waste any time on this forum I have found the debate forum to be very interesting and the WoF subforum to be very BORING and full of weak subjects like "Who is your favorite WoF teacher" and silliness like that. Also, some of the threads here are started just to simply complain against the anti-wofers and gain sympathy from one another (and the fact that the non-wofer is not allowed to respond to said griping).

Then what else do Word Faithers have to talk about with each other since most of them already agree on everything.

Furthermore, as evidenced in one or two of the posts in this thread, even WoFers can be nasty towards each other. I had to leave this forum some time ago when I was attacked a couple of times by fellow WoFers. So much for practicing our "walking in love teachings"

But any way, I do agree with you for the most part.

Supplanter · #9 16th May 2009, 01:06 AM

Originally Posted by victoryword

I agree with you which is why I stayed completely away from this forum up to a few weeks ago and will probably make my exit again soon. Unfortunately if I am going to waste any time on this forum I have found the debate forum to be very interesting and the WoF subforum to be very BORING and full of weak subjects like "Who is your favorite WoF teacher" and silliness like that. Also, some of the threads here are started just to simply complain against the anti-wofers and gain sympathy from one another (and the fact that the non-wofer is not allowed to respond to said griping).

Then what else do Word Faithers have to talk about with each other since most of them already agree on everything.

Furthermore, as evidenced in one or two of the posts in this thread, even WoFers can be nasty towards each other. I had to leave this forum some time ago when I was attacked a couple of times by fellow WoFers. So much for practicing our "walking in love teachings"

But any way, I do agree with you for the most part.

I hope I didn't say anything offensive to anyone. I don't believe I was directing my post to anything said specifically here in this thread, but if I did offend anyone, please point out to me what I said and tell me so I can correct it.

gennaoanothen · #10 16th May 2009, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by victoryword

I agree with you which is why I stayed completely away from this forum up to a few weeks ago and will probably make my exit again soon. Unfortunately if I am going to waste any time on this forum I have found the debate forum to be very interesting and the WoF subforum to be very BORING and full of weak subjects like "Who is your favorite WoF teacher" and silliness like that. Also, some of the threads here are started just to simply complain against the anti-wofers and gain sympathy from one another (and the fact that the non-wofer is not allowed to respond to said griping).

Then what else do Word Faithers have to talk about with each other since most of them already agree on everything.

Furthermore, as evidenced in one or two of the posts in this thread, even WoFers can be nasty towards each other. I had to leave this forum some time ago when I was attacked a couple of times by fellow WoFers. So much for practicing our "walking in love teachings"

But any way, I do agree with you for the most part.

I for one hope you stick around a bit

I had lost the link to your web site, due to a computer crash, and was glad to see it again. I liked your response to the AG position paper, and after my AG pastors sermon on confession, I emailed him a link, in love and I pray that he would take the time to examine it.
I do not believe that it was a coincidence that I found your www link, and his mothers day sermon happened around the same time.
btw your link to the AG position paper is broken.
my post on his mothers day sermon
http://www.christianforums.com/t7161.../#post51616708
the AG position paper link
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/index.cfm

I pray that this matter can be resolved, I believe both denominations have a lot to offer one another, and I am sure that divisions do not please the Lord.

My own personal observations on the differences, I won't share publicly, because some would confuse it with putting down another brother. (which it is not the case) I can see the harm done in the body, by others not believing what we believe, and admitetly we have some things we should address, even Rev. Hagin agreed.
anyhow stick around, I have been able to learn from you. Thank you