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12th May 2009, 08:44 AM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by sfs I'm afraid your response doesn't make a lot of sense here. Including whales among mammals makes the mammalian classification include a much wider range of characteristics than it otherwise would. So why is it ok to include whales in mammals? It is inevitable that the most morphologically distinct taxon in any classification is going to expand the boundaries of the classification. And that will continue to be true even if you drop the outlying taxon, because then another taxon will become the outlier. Why do you object only in the case of humans?
I simply misunderstood what you said. I re-read your statement, and what you said makes sense. It makes perfect sense -- if the classification is based on descent and not on shared characteristics. Snakes are still tetrapods even though they don't have any legs, after all. It only seems nonsensical when part of clade has common traits and a well-known common name. Thus it seems odd to classify humans as apes, or mammals as fish even though phylogenetically we belong to both categories. Since "fish" and "ape" are not scientific terms, however, it is perfectly reasonable not to call humans either apes or fish -- nontechnical vocabulary is a matter of usage and taste, so do what you want. But phylogenetically, humans are part of the group that is (apart from us) called "ape", and also to the group that is (apart from land vertebrates) called "fish".
thank you for this post. you helped a lot. | 
12th May 2009, 09:05 AM
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Reps: 6,565,145,261 (power: 6,565,148) | | Originally Posted by shinbits I didn't say the number doesn't matter. but more important than the individual number of differences, are how significant the differences are.
And apparrently those differences are not numerous and significant enough. I think humans are different enough to warrent a separate family.
Based on what? Only based on the 6 differences you listed or do you want to share some more? At what point would you like to start the family anyway?
Did you do any study on the subject or do you just want to promote the religious agenda and get apes as far away from humans as possible?
Because to me it sounds like you have no idea how the classification system works yet you want to change it. - Ectezus
__________________ Sigmund Freud [1856-1939] (Austrian physician and pioneer psychoanalyst) said: "It would be very nice if there were a God who created the world and was a benevolent providence, and if there were a moral order in the universe and an after-life; but it is a very striking fact that all this is exactly as we are bound to wish it to be." | 
12th May 2009, 09:19 AM
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Reps: 740,063,552 (power: 740,075) | | Originally Posted by shinbits There are many basics things that apes share, that are not true of humans:
No there isn't. Apes have muscular and skeletal features suited for brachation as a major or important source of locomotion. This is not true of humans.
Yes it is. Humans are perfectly capable of brachiation. In fact it is required in some of our gymnastics. Apes have pelvises structured to walk on all fours. This is not true of humans.
This is not true of all apes either. Some non-human apes are habitually bipedal, and I'm not just talking about fossil species either. Apes have arms longer than thier legs. This is not true of humans.
Nor is it true of all other apes. Apes have feet structured for grasping, very much like hands. This is not so with humans.
Nor is it true of Australopiths. Male apes have penis bones. This is not so with humans.
This is not usually so with humans. But one of the traits of Hominids is a reduction in this "penis bone". In chimpanzees, it is just a sliver. Some chimps may lack it altogether, and it still occurs in very rare human births. Apes also have larger jaws; but the biggest difference is that ape jaws portrude much further away from the face than humans. Another big skeletal difference.
By comparison, dog skulls are vastly different in exactly this area. Yet they're all members of the same species, and such variation in their case means nothing. So why should a relatively slight variance between humans and the few other remaining apes be treated with such exaggurated significance in your opinion? So with all these differences, can humans really be considered apes?
Absolutely. Obviously one cannot grow out of one's ancestry. So even if we had become profoundly different than all other surviving apes, (which we haven't) we would still be apes and forever will be.
__________________ "To see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." --Benjamin Franklin "Faith means not wanting to know what is true." --Frederich Nietzche` "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." --Mark Twain "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding," --Reverend Martin Luther | 
12th May 2009, 10:41 AM
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Reps: 60,432,235,365,689,568 (power: 60,432,235,365,700) | | Originally Posted by shinbits thank you for this post. you helped a lot.
Glad to be of service. | 
12th May 2009, 03:07 PM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Aron-Ra No there isn't.
Yes it is. Humans are perfectly capable of brachiation. In fact it is required in some of our gymnastics.
this is like saying "dogs are perfectly capable of walking upright. in fact, it's required in some dog shows". the fact that dogs "can" walk upright doesn't mean that walking upright is a natural trait of dogs. same with humans and brachiation. This is not true of all apes either. Some non-human apes are habitually bipedal, and I'm not just talking about fossil species either.
Nor is it true of all other apes.
Nor is it true of Australopiths.
I didn't say this applied to all apes. just that these are traits that apes have that humans don't. This is not usually so with humans. But one of the traits of Hominids is a reduction in this "penis bone". In chimpanzees, it is just a sliver. Some chimps may lack it altogether, and it still occurs in very rare human births.
good point here. By comparison, dog skulls are vastly different in exactly this area. Yet they're all members of the same species, and such variation in their case means nothing. So why should a relatively slight variance between humans and the few other remaining apes be treated with such exaggurated significance in your opinion?
larger jaws which are also portruding, are not just a "slight" difference, it's a different feature althogether. furthermore, this is a trait true of most apes, but not of any human. if most dogs have a feature that one specific dog doesn't, it's a case for a different classification. Absolutely. Obviously one cannot grow out of one's ancestry. So even if we had become profoundly different than all other surviving apes, (which we haven't) we would still be apes and forever will be.
I don't think that's true. birds are in a different classification from reptiles, even though they share ancestry with them. | 
12th May 2009, 03:12 PM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Ectezus
Based on what? Only based on the 6 differences you listed or do you want to share some more? At what point would you like to start the family anyway?
there are more than 6 differences. humans have skeletal structures suited for walking upright, for another example. apes don't, though a few come close. I don't have to select every single difference between apes and humans to make the point that humans are quite different from other apes. Did you do any study on the subject or do you just want to promote the religious agenda and get apes as far away from humans as possible?
what religious agenda could someone that defends evolution have? | 
12th May 2009, 06:55 PM
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Reps: 6,565,145,261 (power: 6,565,148) | | Originally Posted by shinbits there are more than 6 differences. humans have skeletal structures suited for walking upright, for another example. apes don't, though a few come close. I don't have to select every single difference between apes and humans to make the point that humans are quite different from other apes.
If you think it should be changed then you do need to have strong arguments. All the examples you name are not huge differences compared to apes nor are they numerous compared to the similarities.
The differences that we do have (like walking up right and pretty much everything you mentioned) DOES give us our own separate GENUS. The genus of which we are now the only species left. Why you want to redefine a line where we are the only ones on it is beyond me... It makes no sense.
Also: the classification is not just a label you can slap onto something without further impact. It implies ancestry.
To change our family to something other than Homininae or even Hominidae would also mean our closest ancestor isn't the common ancestry that we and chimpanzees share.
Would your rather have taxonomy say that you are a different family and your closest ancestor is a baboon? We simply know this isn't true. Chimpanzees (their ancestors, not the ones you see in zoo's) are the closest to us and this won't change.
The only thing you can do is advance further down the taxonomy line and create more sub-trees. Lets say, the new species: "superhumans" who's ancestors are Homo-sapiens (us right now). Maybe if humans actually divide into more groups (that can't breed with each other anymore) or something that's possible.
Right now however there is no reason to give us a new status. We can change the way we label ourselves but we can not change our ancestors. - Ectezus
__________________ Sigmund Freud [1856-1939] (Austrian physician and pioneer psychoanalyst) said: "It would be very nice if there were a God who created the world and was a benevolent providence, and if there were a moral order in the universe and an after-life; but it is a very striking fact that all this is exactly as we are bound to wish it to be." | 
13th May 2009, 01:54 AM
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Reps: 15,346,878,439,292 (power: 15,346,878,448) | | | Brachiation is routinely practiced by human children at play. Adults, not so much. This is the same as several of the Great Apes: the young ones spend a lot of time in the trees while adults are comparatively grounded. | 
14th May 2009, 11:21 AM
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Reps: 740,063,552 (power: 740,075) | | Originally Posted by shinbits this is like saying "dogs are perfectly capable of walking upright. in fact, it's required in some dog shows". the fact that dogs "can" walk upright doesn't mean that walking upright is a natural trait of dogs. same with humans and brachiation.
Well let me it another way then. I had no difficulty with brachiation, and I don't know anyone who does -unless the problem is related to their age and weight. I didn't say this applied to all apes. just that these are traits that apes have that humans don't.
If it doesn't apply to all apes, then it's not an ape trait. larger jaws which are also portruding, are not just a "slight" difference, it's a different feature althogether. furthermore, this is a trait true of most apes, but not of any human. if most dogs have a feature that one specific dog doesn't, it's a case for a different classification.
That's rather backwards from a cladistic perspective. You classify according to traits held in common by every member already universally accepted in that set, then see if those traits apply to the subject being considered. The things people use to distinquish us from apes somehow don't count when we're talking about hairless or short-faced dogs. birds are in a different classification from reptiles, even though they share ancestry with them.
Birds are a subset of Maniraptoran theropod dinosaurs, which are a subset of archosaurian diapsid reptiles. Birds are in the classification of diapsid reptiles.
__________________ "To see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." --Benjamin Franklin "Faith means not wanting to know what is true." --Frederich Nietzche` "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." --Mark Twain "Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding," --Reverend Martin Luther | 
14th May 2009, 04:22 PM
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Reps: 201,770,799,312,244,992 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by Aron-Ra That's rather backwards from a cladistic perspective. You classify according to traits held in common by every member already universally accepted in that set, then see if those traits apply to the subject being considered. The things people use to distinquish us from apes somehow don't count when we're talking about hairless or short-faced dogs.
Birds are a subset of Maniraptoran theropod dinosaurs, which are a subset of archosaurian diapsid reptiles. Birds are in the classification of diapsid reptiles.
okay. thank you for this post. just like last time I posted this, you've helped a lot. |  | | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode | | | |