ID and Astrobiology

AV1611VET · #31 11th May 2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Hespera

You are getting as mixed up as scrambled eggs. "Grandma" only gets upset if you try to teach her how to suck eggs. I heard about that.

You should have that straight, its your cultural heritage, not mine.

Now, do you have something to say that is at least remotely on topic or is ya gonna just go with the irrelevant quips?

What?

You don't believe me?

563

Hespera · #32 11th May 2009, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by AV1611VET

What?

You don't believe me?

563

I believe you like to make irrelevant quips and you may as well believe i will never follow your qvlinks.

AV1611VET · #33 11th May 2009, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Hespera

I believe you like to make irrelevant quips and you may as well believe i will never follow your qvlinks.

Now Buddha just turned over.

juvenissun · #34 11th May 2009, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by metherion

But plants DO expel waste. For instance, oxygen. The stomata are structures in plants that almost entire deal with gas exchange, taking in gasses and expelling waste gasses. And some plants deal with waste by moving it to their leaves and shedding it. Plants must excrete waste somehow, you can't have them take it in and in and in and nothing out without being obscenely huge to store it all.

Metherion

What about ions? How does plant dispose ions it absorbed from root?

Shedding leaves is a different matter. It is not triggered by the accumulation of waste products. And its main purpose is not for waste excretion.

metherion · #35 11th May 2009, 10:48 AM

What about ions? How does plant dispose ions it absorbed from root?

Shedding leaves is a different matter. It is not triggered by the accumulation of waste products. And its main purpose is not for waste excretion.

As to the ions, I'm not sure. As hespera stated, some plants do excrete salts, which would most likely contain said ions. But, logically, if a plant absorbs 500g of ions, and the mass does not increase 500g, there must be some outlet for it, correct?

For the second, it doesn't have to be the main purpose. It just has to serve the purpose of. For instance, urine is primarily used for expelling waste, BUT some animals take advantage of the fact that is has odors to mark territory. So, similarly, leaves would primarily be used for photosynthesis, BUT the fact that they get shed means they are an okay place to store waste. Primary purpose =/= only purpose.

Metherion

juvenissun · #36 11th May 2009, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Hespera

Regarding mass murder and serial killing etc, nobody cares if you spray ants and termites. Nobody cares if you crack open chicken eggs! You know perfectly well that the reason that (we in western societies anyway) dont want you to torture animals is that they are have feelings that we can identify with.

If a plant does not expel waste, by the way, they what is the oxygen that they expel? Some plants excrete salt, too.

Am I correct that the only reason you dont want to accept that plants are alive has to do with your need to avoid accepting that there would ahve been death in the "garden of eden"?

Are you saying we could not measure the feeling of plant? I am afraid many who know will disagree with you.

If not, then you are saying plant can not feel pain, joy, etc. like we do. Good. That is a very good reason to say that plant is not a life.

You know monks. Why do they still have peaceful mind when they chew all kind of veggies everyday, and will refuse to have a single taste of chicken? Are they hypocrites?

metherion · #37 11th May 2009, 10:53 AM

Are you saying we could not measure the feeling of plant? I am afraid many who know will disagree with you.

If not, then you are saying plant can not feel pain, joy, etc. like we do. Good. That is a very good reason to say that plant is not a life.

You know monks. Why do they still have peaceful mind when they chew all kind of veggies everyday, and will refuse to have a single taste of chicken? Are they hypocrites?

No, actually, it is a terrible reason to say that a plant is not a life. The same reasoning can be used to say a fetus before a certain age is not a life, no? That germs and bacteria and whatnot are not life. That nothing without a currently detectable nervous system and detected capacity to feel pain is not life. Suddenly, the vast majority of what is classified as life is gone.

And monks would not be hypocrites by eating veggies is they take vows not to eat animals. After all, animal =/= vegetable.

Metherion

juvenissun · #38 11th May 2009, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by metherion

As to the ions, I'm not sure. As hespera stated, some plants do excrete salts, which would most likely contain said ions. But, logically, if a plant absorbs 500g of ions, and the mass does not increase 500g, there must be some outlet for it, correct?

For the second, it doesn't have to be the main purpose. It just has to serve the purpose of. For instance, urine is primarily used for expelling waste, BUT some animals take advantage of the fact that is has odors to mark territory. So, similarly, leaves would primarily be used for photosynthesis, BUT the fact that they get shed means they are an okay place to store waste. Primary purpose =/= only purpose.

Metherion

Very good. But I am not sure it is true for a growing plant.

The question will be more significant for a mature plant. I have no answer to it. I don't think it comes out. But I don't know where does it go (shedding the bark?).

Hey, what is our in-house plant physiologist?

Hespera · #39 11th May 2009, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by juvenissun

Are you saying we could not measure the feeling of plant? I am afraid many who know will disagree with you.

If not, then you are saying plant can not feel pain, joy, etc. like we do. Good. That is a very good reason to say that plant is not a life.

You know monks. Why do they still have peaceful mind when they chew all kind of veggies everyday, and will refuse to have a single taste of chicken? Are they hypocrites?

YOU seem to be saying that plants do have feelings, so then you of all people should say that they are alive.

"many who know"... how to measure the "feelings" of plants? hmmm...
I dont believe anyone could say that plants have feelings. But if you have info on that, tell on.

I think whether monk or any other person, one should take responsibility and show respect for the living things that they must kill in order to survive. Pretending plants are not alive is just a way to duck that responsibility, as far as I an concerned.

You can ask a monk if he is a hypocrite. I dont think they are in this regard, but you can do the research if you like.

I dont think anyone could demonstrate that plants have a nervous system, or any sense of their own 'aliveness" in the way that animals do, especially the higher animals. But the way of life involves cruelty and death and the more aware a living thing is the worse it is for them. That may seem unpalatable but thats how it is.

Now, please answer whether your idea that plants are not alive is in any way related to the story of the garden of eden and how there was no death there.

juvenissun · #40 11th May 2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by metherion

No, actually, it is a terrible reason to say that a plant is not a life. The same reasoning can be used to say a fetus before a certain age is not a life, no? That germs and bacteria and whatnot are not life. That nothing without a currently detectable nervous system and detected capacity to feel pain is not life. Suddenly, the vast majority of what is classified as life is gone.

And monks would not be hypocrites by eating veggies is they take vows not to eat animals. After all, animal =/= vegetable.

Metherion

We can not just see fetus, egg, or seed. We need to see what would it become, which is the grown up object. And I would agree that germs, bacteria, etc. are not lives either. So we may also find them on Mars or on Europa.

Monk does not eat chicken because their doctrine said that chicken IS a life (could be a reincarnated person), while soybean is NOT. So we will not find chicken anywhere else in the universe but on the earth. By the way, some monk eat unfertilized egg. Some don't. It is fun to see the struggle. Yes, a fertilized egg is a life and an unfertilized egg (a cell) is not a life. No matter what biology says. So I will advise a monk: see the egg through a spot light, if see no speck, eat it.