Creation & EvolutionForum for the discussion of this important topic. This forum is open to non-believers. There is a Christians-only forum in the Christians-only section too.
I wonder sometimes about how "faith" and loyalty are related.
Like to me, loyalty to family is as high a value as there is. I guess in a sense that is "faith" that loyalty is the right thing under any and all circumstances. You just dont make exceptions, you dont ask if its a good thing, you dont care what other people say do or think. You just stay loyal to family.
And believe that in the end it will have been better for you and for everyone else, than if you had ever not been loyal.
i suppose loyalty to a particular culture and worldview would be as good a reason as any to keep a religion.
the "state" has been the same as long as i've been alive,
Whoopee do! That is what..19 years? 40?
and as far as i know there's nothing in the archeological or geological record that would indicate a different state past. A very strong inductive argument can be made that the "state" was the same in the past, at least to the point of the big bang.
Meaningless, since there is also NOTHING to indicate it was the same! The big bang is 100% same state past speculation, nothing to it at all. One of the most ridiculously offensive little fairy tales called science ever dumped on planet earth.
and why do you say, "without evidence"? the fact that it is possible to come up with self-consistent models of the past that fit all evidence, under the very inflexible principles of uniformitarianism is good evidence that the past was in the same state.
your turn to answer my question.
Utter rubbish. Uniformitarianism is only consistent with it's little self! Only if we START with a same state imagined by faith into an unknown past, can numbers derived from that basis have any meaning. Self consistent is of no meaning, UNLESS the past was also same state consistent! That science cannot tell us.
__________________ Pr 21:30 -There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD.
Dad, you clearly do not understand my post, and i don't see any point in continuing this discussion about same state past. I believe that has been beaten to death in other threads, anyways.
However, since i have already answered your question, even though you reject my answer, would you care to also answer the question of why you consider religious faith to be a virtue and not a vice? that was the original question, after all, and you've still not answered it.
One cannot choose to unbelieve or believe. As an unbeliever I know you believe at least half of this statement to be true.
Many make faith a virtue by serving others. Many make faith a vice by judging and condemning others.
Faith is not a virtue. It is an avenue through which one can become virtuous. Or not.
Christians suck just like everyone else. I know I do.
Perhaps faith is an avenue to virtue. If so, there are other avenues to the same end: Empathy or humility, for instance.
__________________ "A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it is a superstition." - Jose Bergamin
"You can't trust an honest man." --- Anonymous
"He does not believe who does not live according to his belief." -- Thomas Fuller
"The fact that the author thinks slowly is not serious, but the fact that he publishes faster than he thinks is inexcusable." -- Wolfgang Pauli
"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" -- Micah 6:8
"It is because we believe absurdities that we are able to commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
"This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." -- Wolfgang Pauli
"Je ne suis pas marxiste." -- Karl Marx
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."-- Mark Twain
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein
However, since i have already answered your question, even though you reject my answer, would you care to also answer the question of why you consider religious faith to be a virtue and not a vice?
First of all, without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Originally Posted by Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Second of all, through faith, we understand some things about this universe's creation that transcend science.
Originally Posted by Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Third of all, there's a special blessing attached to those who have never seen Jesus empirically, yet believe.
Originally Posted by John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Our three Christian virtues:
Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
First of all, without faith, it is impossible to please God.Second of all, through faith, we understand some things about this universe's creation that transcend science.Third of all, there's a special blessing attached to those who have never seen Jesus empirically, yet believe.Our three Christian virtues:
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