Honestly, I don't give much thought to hell because I know I will not end up there.
Likewise. I intend to continue to seek to follow Christ so the exact nature of His warnings about eternal death are not as important as whatever the exact nature of heaven which can think of as a mansion with a room prepared for us.
Likewise. I intend to continue to seek to follow Christ so the exact nature of His warnings about eternal death are not as important as whatever the exact nature of heaven which can think of as a mansion with a room prepared for us.
Nice, but do you believe in a literal eternal torment for the lost?
Have any of you changed your stance on mainstream Christianity's teaching on the concept of hell - i.e. literal unending torment for the lost - since coming to this forum?
No. I haven’t see a good Biblical argument against it, and so I have to go with what the Bible says and the historic teachings of orthodox Christianity. If anything, continuing to study the Bible and Christian doctrines, such as Hell, have only caused me to believe it more strongly.
If not, is your main reason for continuing to believe in literal eternal suffering for the lost because of not wanting to disagree with your home church?
Nope. If I didn’t believe in Hell, I would never have stayed in a church that believes it and I would have been weeded out of the ministry of my church long ago.
Whatever your stance, does the idea of literal eternal torment for those whose only punishable sin was 'not believing' go against your moral grain?
Strawman. People don’t go to Hell because they “don’t believe”, but as punishment for their sins. What would go against my moral grain is a God who did not punish sinners.
Originally Posted by Hooksta
Well if you are being literal then Christians aren't allowed to eat shell fish either. (Leviticus 11:12)..."Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."
Originally Posted by Hooksta
So my answer is I don't take it literal. I'm not sure its a "change of stance" for me though. I'm pretty sure I never literally believed Jonah lived inside a big fish either.
That’s terrible logic.
First of all, the command against eating shellfish was never given to Christians, only to the nation of Israel. Second, the Bible tells us that that command is no longer in effect.
Funny that you claim to take the teaching that God forbids the eating of shellfish literally, but you completely ignore the teaching that this teaching did not apply to us and no longer exists.
Originally Posted by ectezus
How often does the bible refer to Hell in particular? As in; not vague but clear cut ever lasting tormenting punishment.
Have any of you changed your stance on mainstream Christianity's teaching on the concept of hell - i.e. literal unending torment for the lost - since coming to this forum? If so, what is your viewpoint now and do you feel somewhat estranged from your home church which still clings to this belief?
Yes: I used to believe that Christianity taught that Hell was infinite punishment for finite crimes. Now I think that Jesus and the Bible teach that Hell is exactly the same as Heaven, except the latter has God and the former doesn't (for a Christian to spend eternity without their god is, in principle, torture; likewise, for a non-Christian to spend eternity with god is torture).
As far as I'm aware, the churches in my town don't have set beliefs; they cater to any and all people with any number of differing beliefs. Over the pond, are you not allowed into a church if you don't subscribe to the beliefs of the congregation?
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My faith in humanity has decreased slightly the more I hear about people entertaining the concept of hell. It's sadistic to me, and I'm sad that people believe such things.
Originally Posted by Wiccan_Child
Yes: I used to believe that Christianity taught that Hell was infinite punishment for finite crimes. Now I think that Jesus and the Bible teach that Hell is exactly the same as Heaven, except the latter has God and the former doesn't (for a Christian to spend eternity without their god is, in principle, torture; likewise, for a non-Christian to spend eternity with god is torture).
I'm interested in hearing what parts of the Bible have brought you to that understanding.
-Lyn
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There IS nothing in the Bible about hell being a place of eternal torment that is ANYTHING but figurative. The actual definition of the biblical 'hell' is 'the grave'. When people die - whether saved or lost - they go to the grave or hell. No fiendish demons wielding pitchforks are waiting there to greet them and torment them with fire for ever and ever.
Not so. All you are showing in the post of yours is your lack knowledge of the bible. Hell is covered in great detail as a place of everlasting torment for the wicked. Here are some verses:
Daniel 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
2 Thess 1:9-10 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternallycondemned!
Revelation 20:14-15 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Culture Couldn't Explain Him...
Doubters Couldn't Refute Him...
Wherever Jesus Went He Brought Trouble With Him...
And He's Asked Us To Follow In His Footsteps...
Acts 17:6 ..."These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,"
My faith in humanity has decreased slightly the more I hear about people entertaining the concept of hell. It's sadistic to me, and I'm sad that people believe such things.
I'm interested in hearing what parts of the Bible have brought you to that understanding.
-Lyn
In Judaism (the precursor to, and foundation of, later Christian thought), the destination of the dead is called sheol, and everyone goes there. The Greek counterpart is hades: rather than being a place of eternal punishment, it is where the dead go to be judged (the place of eternal punishment was called tartarus).
In the Bible, 'Hell' is the English translation of the words sheol and hades (indeed, hades is the Greek translation of sheol). So when the Bible speaks of Hell, it is not referring to eternal punishment: both Jewish and Greek authors would have used the words sheol and hades not as places of eternal punishment, but the immediate destination of the dead (both good and bad).
Now, the Jewish and Greek terms for eternal punishment are gehenna and tartarus. Tartarus is found only once in the Bible, and is the place where God threw the rebelling angels (2 Peter 2:4). Gehenna is derived from ge-hinnom, a real place where human sacrifices were carried out.
So when the Bible talks about Hell, it can be referring to either sheol/hades or gehenna/tartarus, and the distinction is important. For example, in luke 16:19-31, a rich man dies and is sent to hell (hades) and is in torment, but he is only in torment as compared to a dead begger who goes to heaven.
__________________ I am a scientist... when I find evidence that my theories are wrong, it is as exciting as if the evidence proved them right.
Stargate: SG1
A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections, -- a mere heart of stone.
Charles Darwin
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
Christopher Hitchens
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My position on hell is that people put themselves there. Hell is the absence of God. Period. No fire. No brimstone. No wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If someone doesn't recognize God on this earth, they probably will not recognize Him in the afterlife, either.
Or if they do recognize Him, the delights that they focused on on earth (material things) will be absent, and the delights offered by God won't be to their taste.
If the delight is union with God, it requires surrender, and those who have spent their earthly life failing to surrender in any way won't be disposed to do so after death.
But I don't think that "hell" for these people will involve physical pain. I think it will just involve boredom, lack of meaning and purpose.
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I have changed by viewpoint of hell since coming to CF to that more centered around anhilliationism, but not because of what anyone told me, I looked into to make sure what I believed what true and not just hersay as a lot of christianity can be and to make a stand against universalism. I was amazed by what I found.
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