the New Covenant of grace, according to Paul.

stranger · #1 7th May 2009, 04:50 AM

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah:

Paul says the new covenant is with the two nations into which Israel was long ago divided ... no mention of anyone else under grace!

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the Hebrews whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant , proving that grace is for descendants of the two nations descended from Jacob whose ancestors broke the old covenant, NOT with some 'spiritual Israel' composed of gentiles unconnected with Israel.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

God takes this remnant descended from Jacob [Isarel] to be His people and says He will be their God ... why do almost all modern Christians not believe Him?

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

God says that those under grace will NOT TEACH one another because He will put His laws in their minds and hearts Himself!

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

God says that He has completely forgiven Israel the sins of their forefathers under the old covenant , directly contradicting most modern Christianity's teachings.

heymikey80 · #2 25th May 2009, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by stranger

Paul says the new covenant is with the two nations into which Israel was long ago divided ... no mention of anyone else under grace!

Paul says grace is to everyone in the Gospel.

Paul says the New Covenant is with the children of promise, not solely Israel:

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband." 28 brothers,Now you, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-28

in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" Rom 9:23-26

Originally Posted by stranger

Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the Hebrews whose 'fathers' broke the old covenant , proving that grace is for descendants of the two nations descended from Jacob whose ancestors broke the old covenant, NOT with some 'spiritual Israel' composed of gentiles unconnected with Israel.

Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham, who are:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:28-29

our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:5-6

Originally Posted by stranger

God takes this remnant descended from Jacob [Isarel] to be His people and says He will be their God ... why do almost all modern Christians not believe Him?

God has levelled the playing field, so ethnic distinctions and Old Covenant distinctions simply aren't a factor in Christ:

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Rom 11:30-32

Originally Posted by stranger

God says that those under grace will NOT TEACH one another because He will put His laws in their minds and hearts Himself!

Paul says, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:14

The playing field is set for this to occur. As long as there are people born into this old Creation though, people don't know God. The New Covenant will eventually reach all, forever. But it doesn't say God will do all this before He starts the New Covenant. This is something the New Covenant will accomplish. And the New Covenant certainly isn't over.

It's also unlikely this reverses all teaching. It stops the teaching of the sort, "Know the Lord". That's one kind of teaching.

Originally Posted by stranger

God says that He has completely forgiven Israel the sins of their forefathers under the old covenant , directly contradicting most modern Christianity's teachings.

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Rom 11:11

What's a trespass? What's disobedience?

God's said this would happen under the New Covenant economy. That'd be when the nation of Israel turns to Christ in faith.

stranger · #3 25th May 2009, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by heymikey80

Paul says grace is to everyone in the Gospel.

Everyone in the gospel are descendants of the House of Israel or the House of Judah , those whose fathers broke th old covenant , Paul says this in Heb 8:8-9, the new covenant itself from God ,why do you not believe God in this ?

Paul says the New Covenant is with the children of promise, not solely Israel:

The Promise has been handed down, father to son, throughout the history of the Hebrews , not to all Hebrews, but only to Hebrew sons , never to a gentile because God chose Israel for His prophecy, and God must make His prophecy come true... thus the new covenant states unequivocably that, despite Israel breaking the old covenant , the descendants of those who broke the old covenant will be the people of God and are given unmerited forgiveness [grace] by which to do so [Heb 8:8-12] ... It is not debatable what it says, those whose fathers broke the old covenant are the only ones given grace under the new covenant [Heb 8:8-9] ... that is God's covenant , accept it or not, it will stand as written ,it is up to you whether you accept the words or their later corruption by sinners

Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham,

Paul says NOTHING anywhere in scripture about 'spiritual descendants' , he speaks of those whose father's broke the old covenant

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:28-29

There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ [because countless many of all nations are saved AFTERWARD -Rev 7:9-10]

But the new covenant is required only for those first saved to be the kings and priests of the kingdom come upon the earth those few [Mat 7:14, Rev 7:3-8, Jude 1:14] who are required first because they serve the masses afterward as kings and priests ... who do the few serve? ... the countless many in Rev 7:9-10 who are saved , but the many cannot be the few of Matt 7:14, thus the many saved all came by the broad way [Matt 7:13] , their spirit saved for resurrection, their body and soul [life] destroyed as wages of sin ,a s e.g . :-

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:5-6

The Hebrew saints are indeed ministers of God under the new covenant ... so what ?

God has levelled the playing field, so ethnic distinctions and Old Covenant distinctions simply aren't a factor in Christ:

there never was an uneven playing field, the plan of God to save Israel first and use them as the priests and kings to rule and save the gentiles was told from the beginning and written down as soon as men could write:-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

There can be no doubt to whom Moses is speaking here and no doubt whom Israel must serve as priests of the kingdom of God , hardly just themselves ...

For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Rom 11:30-32

God indeed has mercy on all, but NOT by the new covenant ! It says so in God's own words Heb 8:8-9 , His covenant as WRITTEN , not negotiable, not subject to religious spin... read it and understand that God will do exactly and only what it says , no more , no less ... no matter how much you want it to say what you want to believe, it does not do so... so read it if you want to believe God , else join the billions of sinners who don't .

Paul says, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:14

the 'We' in that are Hebrew saints, not gentile sinners ...

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Rom 11:11

You are confusing the salvation of the priests first [Rev 7:3-8] with the salvation of the gentiles later [Rev 7:9-10] ,just note Matt 7:14 and see who are the few, who are of the many...

God's said this would happen under the New Covenant economy. That'd be when the nation of Israel turns to Christ in faith.

Again read the OT and NT , the promise is NOT to all Israel, it comes down to only a remnant FEW [note Jesus says they are all of the tribes of Israel, named after sons of Jacob, Rev 7:3-8] ... All Israel will be saved in due course :-

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

but the firstfruit saints of the new covenant are stated to those whose fathers broke the old covenant , thus obviously are not the whole of Israel and we know how few they are [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] , only tens of thousands, 144,000 ... Israel is much larger than that [as are most gentile denominations, rather tellingly in relation to what they think their role is !]

It is fruitless to try and become Israel by ignoring what God says, that the new covenant is with those who broke the old covenant ... it is not for Israel's sake, it is unmerited by them FOR GOD's sake , because His prophecy cannot be broken simply because Israel broke the old covenant ...

Thus the new covenant has no conditions except that it is only with the descendants of those who broke the old covenant ... stop trying to re-write it, just READ IT carefully in your own bible ...Heb 8:8-9 and also in Jer 31:31-34 [again showing that it is addressed to Israel, to the House of Judah and the House of Israel, those whose father's broke the old covenant ... it is not ambiguous, not negotiable, and it disproves what you claim , so please just decide whether you believe God or not, it is not my words yo are disputing, it is the new covenant itself as it is written... so READ it and be reproved by God from the modern religious tradition that has likely misled you ... read what god says is His covenant and change your belief to fit His words instead of trying to reshape what is the written covenant to fit some modern theory that gentiles can be priests in the kingdom of God [without joining Israel first , which very few have done and do]

heymikey80 · #4 29th May 2009, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by stranger

Everyone in the gospel are descendants of the House of Israel or the House of Judah , those whose fathers broke th old covenant , Paul says this in Heb 8:8-9, the new covenant itself from God ,why do you not believe God in this ?

Oh, I believe God, just not you.

The Apostle says the covenant will be made with Judah and Israel. The Apostle doesn't say the covenant won't be made with anyone else.

But then, Paul does say the covenant will be made with all other nations:

For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God Ep 2:18-19

Originally Posted by stranger

The Promise has been handed down, father to son, throughout the history of the Hebrews , not to all Hebrews, but only to Hebrew sons , never to a gentile because God chose Israel for His prophecy, and God must make His prophecy come true... thus the new covenant states unequivocably that, despite Israel breaking the old covenant , the descendants of those who broke the old covenant will be the people of God and are given unmerited forgiveness [grace] by which to do so [Heb 8:8-12] ...

It's not debatable what God says; it is debatable what you say God says.

Israel hasn't been the only one to break an old covenant -- all peoples, including Gentiles, have done the same:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one." Rom 3:9-12

While God shall indeed save all Israel as He has said, God has also put all peoples under disobedience in order to grant mercy to all. That's what Paul says:

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Rom 11:28-32

Originally Posted by stranger

It is not debatable what it says, those whose fathers broke the old covenant are the only ones given grace under the new covenant [Heb 8:8-9]

It is indeed debatable what you say.

... assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Ep 3:2-6

God's grace is given for the Gentiles, all the nations, not just the nation of Israel. Paul says so in :2.

Paul additionally says that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, brother heirs. And an heir is an heir to what? In Greek, an heir is an heir to a testament. The same word in Greek for covenant.

Originally Posted by stranger

... that is God's covenant , accept it or not, it will stand as written ,it is up to you whether you accept the words or their later corruption by sinners

I'm pretty sure I haven't obscured God's words about His covenant to the degree of your position. The reality is that the children of promise are God's heirs, not the children of physical birth. Paul said that, y'know.

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Rom 9:6-8

And then Paul said who that was:

vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" Rom 9:23-26

Originally Posted by stranger

Paul says NOTHING anywhere in scripture about 'spiritual descendants'

I suggest you take a good hard look at Rom 9:8. Then Rom 9:23-26.

Originally Posted by stranger

There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ [because countless many of all nations are saved AFTERWARD -Rev 7:9-10]

Clearly not, as Paul points out who's which covenant:

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
28 brothers,Now you, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-28

Back to the start -- Paul already hammered this home explicitly, Gentiles are members of the New Covenant. There's no Jew and Gentile in Christ -- so there's certainly no Jew and Gentile in Christ's covenant.

Originally Posted by stranger

But the new covenant is required only for those first saved to be the kings and priests of the kingdom come upon the earth those few [Mat 7:14, Rev 7:3-8, Jude 1:14] ...

... do you have any particular answer to what Galatians explicitly says? Because what Paul explicitly says, I'll take over the derived conclusion of a self-absorbed eschatology any day.

Originally Posted by stranger

The Hebrew saints are indeed ministers of God under the new covenant ... so what ?

You missed it. Paul's writing to a Gentile church and says ...

And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on human hearts.

then on its heels says ...

our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Spirit of God is delivering the covenant into human hearts. Which human hearts? Why, the Corinthians' human hearts.

And they're Gentiles.

Originally Posted by stranger

there never was an uneven playing field, the plan of God to save Israel first and use them as the priests and kings to rule and save the gentiles was told from the beginning and written down as soon as men could write:- Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

That ship sailed.

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened Rom 11:7

As it is now, they'll be an amazing ending, not a first:

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
27"and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

Originally Posted by stranger

There can be no doubt to whom Moses is speaking here and no doubt whom Israel must serve as priests of the kingdom of God , hardly just themselves ...

There's clearly doubt. They're priests of God. The priesthood does not have to be mediatory -- especially when all know God.

Originally Posted by stranger

God indeed has mercy on all, but NOT by the new covenant ! It says so in God's own words Heb 8:8-9

"I do not think that verse means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya points out that Heb 8:8-9 never says "God doesn't have mercy on other people through the covenant."

Just doesn't say it. Who's putting words in God's mouth?

Originally Posted by stranger

... His covenant as WRITTEN , not negotiable, not subject to religious spin... read it and understand that God will do exactly and only what it says , no more , no less ... no matter how much you want it to say what you want to believe, it does not do so... so read it if you want to believe God , else join the billions of sinners who don't .
the 'We' in that are Hebrew saints, not gentile sinners ...

Read plenty. Just not believing your spin.

And it is assuredly your spin, as the Scriptures you're citing don't say what you're saying they're saying.

Look back over the Scriptures I'm citing.

You shouldn't resist the Holy Scriptures written of God, right?.

Originally Posted by stranger

You are confusing the salvation of the priests first [Rev 7:3-8] with the salvation of the gentiles later [Rev 7:9-10] ,just note Matt 7:14 and see who are the few, who are of the many...

I'm sorry -- are you really saying your interpretation of John's vision is God's meaning, but Paul's flat out statement is not?

Originally Posted by stranger

Again read the OT and NT , the promise is NOT to all Israel, it comes down to only a remnant FEW [note Jesus says they are all of the tribes of Israel, named after sons of Jacob, Rev 7:3-8] ... All Israel will be saved in due course :-

More eschatological guesses interpreted as God's meaning.

Say the interpretation is what you say -- the Church is already gone. No need for all these priests, as you say above, because there're no Gentiles to minister to.

It doesn't make sense.

Originally Posted by stranger

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

but the firstfruit saints of the new covenant are stated to those whose fathers broke the old covenant , thus obviously are not the whole of Israel and we know how few they are [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] , only tens of thousands, 144,000 ... Israel is much larger than that [as are most gentile denominations, rather tellingly in relation to what they think their role is !]

This doesn't wash. God's never said this was it. Even in the vision, this is simply those people alive at the time who are reserved by Him.

He reserved 7000 in Elijah's day.

Originally Posted by stranger

It is fruitless to try and become Israel by ignoring what God says, that the new covenant is with those who broke the old covenant ... it is not for Israel's sake, it is unmerited by them FOR GOD's sake, because His prophecy cannot be broken simply because Israel broke the old covenant ...

Apply what you're saying to your view's shortcomings, then we'll talk. Trying to conclude a case on such shaky ground is no grounds for attack.

Originally Posted by stranger

Thus the new covenant has no conditions except that it is only with the descendants of those who broke the old covenant ... stop trying to re-write it, just READ IT carefully in your own bible ...Heb 8:8-9 and also in Jer 31:31-34 [again showing that it is addressed to Israel, to the House of Judah and the House of Israel, those whose father's broke the old covenant ... it is not ambiguous, not negotiable, and it disproves what you claim , so please just decide whether you believe God or not, it is not my words yo are disputing, it is the new covenant itself as it is written... so READ it and be reproved by God from the modern religious tradition that has likely misled you ... read what god says is His covenant and change your belief to fit His words instead of trying to reshape what is the written covenant to fit some modern theory that gentiles can be priests in the kingdom of God [without joining Israel first , which very few have done and do]

I did read it. It's your turn to read it.

Read God's Word. Understand what He's saying and what terms He's using. Don't just swallow whatever's being dished out for eschatology in your church. Read the Word. Watch for words like "heir", "promise", "covenant", "testament", "regulation". Look for the differences between spiritual and physical Israel, Church, Jew, Circumcision. Find out who are the true children God intends.

It's not hard. But everyone's going to be against you doing this, who's religious. Everyone's going to be against God. Because they're right about human religion running from God. But they're wrong about who it is who's running.

It's them.

stranger · #5 29th May 2009, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by heymikey80

Paul says grace is to everyone in the Gospel.

No he doesn't ... many will be saved [Rev 7:9-10],but Paul NEVER says they will be saved by grace ... rather the many, who are all sinners to death as only few find the way of saints in this life [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8] , and go by the broad way through destruction , paid wages of sin in death, can only be saved [Rev 7:9-10] by works in the kingdom after resurrection of the unjust after the Millenium:-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 20:13 ...and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

they were free of sinat resurrection and so can be saved by judgment of tehir works in the righteous kingdom of God set up with the few as priests and kings under Jesus [ high priest and king of kings]

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This is why only the few receive grace , the many do not need it because death frees them from past sin and they are judged by works in the righteous kingdom, not prejudged at death [when there would be no point in resurrecting them and no point in setting up a kingdom of priests to serve no-one]

Paul says the New Covenant is with the children of promise, not solely Israel:

The children [descendants] of the promise are the remnant of Israel, the promise of god was only ever handed down through the Hebrews , through Jacob [Israel] to his descendants.

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband." 28 brothers,Now you, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-28

The promise made to the descendants of Hagar was different than the promise made to Jacob ... why not read about it in the OT instead of pretending they are the same ?

in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" Rom 9:23-26

Those who were called "not my people " are the House of Israel as detailed repeatedly in the OT ,and they indeed have been living as gentiles for well over two millennia , scattered long before the Jews amongst all nations [gentiles] and losing their identity as the House of Israel , ceasing to be a people, becoming gentiles and worshiping idols [unlike most Jews who held identity as Israel through Judaism]

You are misreading the scripture because you have not studied the OT

Paul says the new covenant of grace is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham, who are:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. Gal 3:28-29

Again you are mistaken , Jesus Christ is indeed saviour of countless many gentiles of all nations as well as all Israel , but te true gentiles and most of Israel are saved [Rev 7:9-10] AFTER the few , remnant of Israel, who must be first because they are the priests and kings of the kingdom as promised to Moses [Exodus 19:6] and ratified in the new covenant [Heb 8:8-12, Rev 7:3-8]

All the many must go the broad way because few go by the narrow strait way of saints in this life, yet countless many are saved after going the broad way to resurrection after the Millennium

our sufficiency is from God, 6who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:5-6

The old covenant kills , the new covenant is life through baptism of the spirit under grace to the remnant of Israel

God has levelled the playing field, so ethnic distinctions and Old Covenant distinctions simply aren't a factor in Christ:

Agreed, Jews and gentiles are both saved through Jesus Christ, but the remnant of Israel are the priests who must be saved first sothey can later serve the rst of Israel and the gentile masses in the kingdom of God come to the masses [of sinners] after they are resurrected inthe sceond resurrection[of the unjust] after the Millennium

Paul says, "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ." 1 Cor 2:14

The spirit is given to those under the new covenant who follow Jesus giving them all truth and knowledge of the future before their death {John 16:13] ... it is rather obvious that it unites all who follow Jesus in one truth so that they do NOT need teaching by men or each other [Heb 8:8-12] and itsays who they are here too... it is clear that Christian religion is divided riight down to individualbeliefs, so is not united by the spirit ...

The playing field is set for this to occur. As long as there are people born into this old Creation though, people don't know God. The New Covenant will eventually reach all, forever. But it doesn't say God will do all this before He starts the New Covenant. This is something the New Covenant will accomplish. And the New Covenant certainly isn't over.

Agreed, but Jesus says who will have become saints under the new covenant by his return [Rev 7:3-8] and they are few [Matt 7;14] not the countless many gentiles of Rev 7:9-10 who come later ... not everyone is required as kngs and priests of the kingdom and God already promised this to he children of Israel [Exodus 19:6] ... the promise was handed down through Jacob [Israel] and confirmed by Jesus and Paul to be with the descendants of Jacob , Israel being forgiven now , who were previously rejected , those who broke the old covenant are the only ones given grace in the new covenant, it mentions no others and Jesus states no others in Rev 7:3-8

It's also unlikely this reverses all teaching. It stops the teaching of the sort, "Know the Lord". That's one kind of teaching.
So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Rom 11:11

You are confusing grace and salvation, few have grace now that they may be the priests in the salvation later of countless many gentiles ... the gentile sinners do not need grace because they will all be freed from sin by death [e.g. Rom 6:7]

What's a trespass? What's disobedience?

sin is a trespass, sin is any unlovingness, disobedience to Jesus as lord in his command to saints to love else be rejected like all who are still sinners by his return :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

Sinners do NOT follow Jesus, they follow Satan ... if they do not stop before Jesus returns and accept trial of their sainthood [baptism of fire - Matthew 3:11,1 Peter 1:7] then they will be rejected at his return as all sinners, but may of course be saved with the many later :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

God's said this would happen under the New Covenant economy. That'd be when the nation of Israel turns to Christ in faith.

Many of Israel died sinners already, the whole nation cannot be saved at Jesus' return, but will be saved later through the remnant FEW [Matt 7:14] of Israel saved first [Rev 8:3-8]

heymikey80 · #6 29th May 2009, 06:17 PM

Mkay. So essentially it's the third time.

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
28 brothers,Now you, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-28

Your initial point is overturned by explicit Scripture. Why your position is so far deviated from God's Words, you'll have to look around for the reasons.

Originally Posted by stranger

No he doesn't ... many will be saved [Rev 7:9-10],but Paul NEVER says they will be saved by grace ... rather the many, who are all sinners to death as only few find the way of saints in this life [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8] , and go by the broad way through destruction , paid wages of sin in death, can only be saved [Rev 7:9-10] by works in the kingdom after resurrection of the unjust after the Millenium:-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 20:13 ...and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So your interpretation is God's? Even though there're a half-dozen other plausible views of this text, most of which are much more plausible when harmonized with Paul? Even when they led you to the conclusion that's flatly opposed to what Scripture says?

The standard dispy premillenial position points to this as the Final Judgment. Those who went through the Millenial Resurrection aren't there -- they're alive. This is the judgment of the Dead. The Book of Life is opened -- it's to verify for everyone that no, they're not in the Book of Life.

End result is perfectly plausible, because everyone not trusting Christ is judged by their works.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come intojudgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

Originally Posted by stranger

they were free of sinat resurrection and so can be saved by judgment of tehir works in the righteous kingdom of God set up with the few as priests and kings under Jesus [ high priest and king of kings]

It seems as if you're injecting an outside eschatology into John's writing. And so you'd be committing the same crime against the Scripture that you've accused other churches of committing.

YouTube - Who - Won't get fooled again 1971

Originally Posted by stranger

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This is why only the few receive grace , the many do not need it because death frees them from past sin and they are judged by works in the righteous kingdom, not prejudged at death [when there would be no point in resurrecting them and no point in setting up a kingdom of priests to serve no-one]

But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 5:15-21

Originally Posted by stranger

The children [descendants] of the promise are the remnant of Israel, the promise of god was only ever handed down through the Hebrews , through Jacob [Israel] to his descendants.

Now you [Galatians], like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-28

Scripture beggars this view. It's not Scripture -- it's an injection of dispensational fragmentation that Scripture doesn't tolerate.

Originally Posted by stranger

The promise made to the descendants of Hagar was different than the promise made to Jacob ... why not read about it in the OT instead of pretending they are the same ?

According to Paul -- in context -- this is wrong.

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. Gal 4:25

I've read it in the OT, and I've read what Paul says. Paul's allegorizing, and Paul dictates the allegory. Right there. Right then.

stranger · #7 29th May 2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by heymikey80

Mkay. So essentially it's the third time.
Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
"Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband."
28 brothers,Now you, like Isaac, are children of promise. Gal 4:24-28

Your initial point is overturned by explicit Scripture. Why your position is so far deviated from God's Words, you'll have to look around for the reasons.

You're both jumping the gun, to conclusions before the discussion is over, and confusing the literal meaning with the symbolic one ... it doesn't help that you won't wait to the end of the discussion to throw your premature conclusions in people's faces , in fact it shows you are only rushing to assert you are right instead of looking openly for the truth from scripture... so please stop and resume discussion with an open mind and prayer to God to keep it open in face of temptation from Satan to close it and believe sinners [after all, all those who follow Jesus are taught by God Himself , not by men , as stated in the new covenant Heb 8:8-12 ,John 6:45, and 1 Thessalonians 4:9] - As jesus says, all theworld bar the few saints who folow him, will follow Satan [Rev 13:3-10] ... having a lot of people agree about scripture at this time thus proves they are following Satan, not Jesus [Rev 7:3-8, Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14]

So , literally, the promises to Hagar and Jacob are not anything like each other .... figuratively Hagar is the old covenant as still relied upon by most Jews , even in Jerusalem, and through Isaac went the promise of the remnant who have been and will be saved by the new covenant ... it says nothing about the gentiles whatever, simply compares Judaism relying on the promise of the old covenant with Hagar [since neither are under the new covenant] with the remnant of Israel [promise through Isaac and Jacob] under the new covenant ...

So your interpretation is God's? Even though there're a half-dozen other plausible views of this text, most of which are much more plausible when harmonized with Paul? Even when they led you to the conclusion that's flatly opposed to what Scripture says?

Sorry, but you are jumping to conclusions yet again instead of waiting for the discussion to finish... it is a waste of time and effort if you do not stop, so please... stop... thanks ...

The standard dispy premillenial position points to this as the Final Judgment. Those who went through the Millenial Resurrection aren't there -- they're alive. This is the judgment of the Dead. The Book of Life is opened -- it's to verify for everyone that no, they're not in the Book of Life.

I suppose that that means something to you, but the many of Rev 7:9-10 cannot be the few of Matt 7:14, Rev 3-8 and Jude 1:14, thus all the countless many saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10] have come by the broad way, yet are saved according to Jesus ... and they cannot even be resurrected until after the Millennium [Revelation 20:5] ... thus they are freed from hell[hades] and saved by works in the kingdom [Revelation 20:13]

End result is perfectly plausible, because everyone not trusting Christ is judged by their works.

You are forgetting that there would be no righteous works were it not possible to convert to Christ in the kingdom, being a sinner in this life does not meanone must continue to sin after resurrection, and Jesus confirms countless many will be saved in this later time [Rev 7:9-10] and all those were sinners in this life who died sinners and acme to Jesus through that broad way , destroyed in death but the spirit saved for resurrection to salvation by works after death , like this guy :-

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

Again, it is quite true that the few of tribal Israel [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8]] who go by the narrow strait way of saints in this life have eternal life by translation at Jesus' return [some needing resurrection first , the resurrection of the justified, the just] , these are they who can hear Jesus and obey him to stop sinning, become saints now ... but the many cannot become saints until after the Millennium, in fact the kingdom is not ready for salvation of countless many [billions] until then , the priests and kings have to be readied first, so the few are first to whom the proise of being kings and priests was made from the begining [and written down as soon as men could write - Exodus 16:9]

It seems as if you're injecting an outside eschatology into John's writing. And so you'd be committing the same crime against the Scripture that you've accused other churches of committing.

Again you are jumping the gun, just stick to discussion please until we have finished discussing ... I have not accused anyone, just drawn the logical conclusion that among differing beliefs only one AT MOST ,and possibly none, are true ... thus most of Christianity by logic alone must be false , a vast phenomenon which is described in scripture but not acknowledged by any denomination I know of [for obvious reasons]... bearing in mind that there can be on average but a couple of thousand saints following Jesus at any one time in the earth in the period from his first ministry leading up to his second coming ... that excludes not only all churches of sinners and all non-Israelite churches , but also any church larger than a few thousand...
the scripture is powerful truth and we know from it that very few will accept what it actually says ... so most have misinterpreted it already and have been reworking it to fit their beliefs for very many centuries ... we know almost all will fail to find the truth that way since God teaches all who follow Jesus Himself and they all come to agree in one truth who follow Jesus, just are viciously rejected by mainline religion that eventually comes to include all the rest of the world [Rev 13:3-10]

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. Gal 4:25

Yes, the Jews in Jerusalem make the rules for most Jews , and they truly are still trying to keep the old covenant [and failing , they have no temple for sacrifices for starters , and they cannot even agree ... Judaism is as divided as Christianity, neither can be much true ,and one can compare toscripture and find how little is true and why :-

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

God is not even ready for all Israel yet, the kingdom has to be set up with the few first , get the kings and priests ready first ...

I've read it in the OT, and I've read what Paul says. Paul's allegorizing, and Paul dictates the allegory. Right there. Right then.

Yes,well sorry you didn't get what I was saying, I hope it is clearer now that I wasn't challenging Paul's allegory , simply highlighting the facts upon which it is based ...

heymikey80 · #8 29th May 2009, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by stranger

You're both jumping the gun, to conclusions before the discussion is over, and confusing the literal meaning with the symbolic one ...

Both of us? That is, me & Paul? Or me & God?

Originally Posted by stranger

it doesn't help that you won't wait to the end of the discussion to throw your premature conclusions in people's faces , in fact it shows you are only rushing to assert you are right instead of looking openly for the truth from scripture... so please stop and resume discussion with an open mind and prayer to God to keep it open in face of temptation from Satan to close it and believe sinners [after all, all those who follow Jesus are taught by God Himself , not by men , as stated in the new covenant Heb 8:8-12 ,John 6:45, and 1 Thessalonians 4:9] - As jesus says, all theworld bar the few saints who folow him, will follow Satan [Rev 13:3-10] ... having a lot of people agree about scripture at this time thus proves they are following Satan, not Jesus [Rev 7:3-8, Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14]

Methinks you might want to look at your postings before you actually accuse someone else of this.

Originally Posted by stranger

So , literally, the promises to Hagar and Jacob are not anything like each other .... figuratively Hagar is the old covenant as still relied upon by most Jews , even in Jerusalem, and through Isaac went the promise of the remnant who have been and will be saved by the new covenant ... it says nothing about the gentiles whatever, simply compares Judaism relying on the promise of the old covenant with Hagar [since neither are under the new covenant] with the remnant of Israel [promise through Isaac and Jacob] under the new covenant ...

Letter is to Galatians -- Paul uses the second person plural to say who's under the new covenant. He really is. It does indeed say something about the Gentiles Paul is writing to. They're clearly Gentiles.

Originally Posted by stranger

Sorry, but you are jumping to conclusions yet again instead of waiting for the discussion to finish... it is a waste of time and effort if you do not stop, so please... stop... thanks ...

Sorry, I'm not going to allow this. You can't dump truckloads of error and then expect me to just read through it as if it must all be true. There's no discussion there. You've posted. I'll post back. That's how this works. I'm going to answer as each issue comes along.

Originally Posted by stranger

I suppose that that means something to you, but the many of Rev 7:9-10 cannot be the few of Matt 7:14, Rev 3-8 and Jude 1:14, thus all the countless many saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10] have come by the broad way, yet are saved according to Jesus ... and they cannot even be resurrected until after the Millennium [Revelation 20:5] ... thus they are freed from hell[hades] and saved by works in the kingdom [Revelation 20:13]

Nah. No reason to. Your attempt to factualize John's vision doesn't really do justice to it. There's no salvation by works -- "by works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Instead, "few" and "many" are by comparison. Little is much when God's in it. A remnant grows to a multitude, but it's still a few in any given instance or generation.

Originally Posted by stranger

You are forgetting that there would be no righteous works were it not possible to convert to Christ in the kingdom, being a sinner in this life does not meanone must continue to sin after resurrection, and Jesus confirms countless many will be saved in this later time [Rev 7:9-10] and all those were sinners in this life who died sinners and acme to Jesus through that broad way , destroyed in death but the spirit saved for resurrection to salvation by works after death , like this guy :-
1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Not forgetting: denying.

Our purpose is to walk in good works. Now. Ep 2:10

The broad path leads to destruction. Not salvation.

This whole idea of being a sinner now, meaning we can't do good works, that just doesn't fly throughout Paul's letters. He's constantly pointing out that "you were washed, cleansed" from sins that would've condemned you. John also is pointing out that "the one who is righteous is doing righteous things."

Originally Posted by stranger

Again, it is quite true that the few of tribal Israel [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8]] who go by the narrow strait way of saints in this life have eternal life by translation at Jesus' return [some needing resurrection first , the resurrection of the justified, the just] , these are they who can hear Jesus and obey him to stop sinning, become saints now ... but the many cannot become saints until after the Millennium, in fact the kingdom is not ready for salvation of countless many [billions] until then , the priests and kings have to be readied first, so the few are first to whom the proise of being kings and priests was made from the begining [and written down as soon as men could write - Exodus 16:9]

Nah.

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. Rom 11:23

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Rom 2:28-29

Originally Posted by stranger

Again you are jumping the gun, just stick to discussion please until we have finished discussing ...

I'm quite very much allowed to make my points, just as you are allowed to make your points from whatever you deem useful to your side.

Please, permit other people the same latitude as yourself.

Originally Posted by stranger

I have not accused anyone, just drawn the logical conclusion that among differing beliefs only one AT MOST ,and possibly none, are true ... thus most of Christianity by logic alone must be false , a vast phenomenon which is described in scripture but not acknowledged by any denomination I know of [for obvious reasons]...

Hm. Ever hear of "Total Inability"? How about the "the fallibility of church councils"? In truth there're actually a number of denominations who adhere to this view.

Originally Posted by stranger

bearing in mind that there can be on average but a couple of thousand saints following Jesus at any one time in the earth in the period from his first ministry leading up to his second coming ... that excludes not only all churches of sinners and all non-Israelite churches , but also any church larger than a few thousand...

It all depends what your criterion is for who's "in".

The rules have changed.

Originally Posted by stranger

the scripture is powerful truth and we know from it that very few will accept what it actually says ... so most have misinterpreted it already and have been reworking it to fit their beliefs for very many centuries ... we know almost all will fail to find the truth that way since God teaches all who follow Jesus Himself and they all come to agree in one truth who follow Jesus, just are viciously rejected by mainline religion that eventually comes to include all the rest of the world [Rev 13:3-10]

Lessee, where's that verse, "those who accept everything Scripture says are the only ones who are my disciples." Where's that?

Was Peter a disciple of Christ?

"Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

Originally Posted by stranger

Yes, the Jews in Jerusalem make the rules for most Jews , and they truly are still trying to keep the old covenant [and failing , they have no temple for sacrifices for starters , and they cannot even agree ... Judaism is as divided as Christianity, neither can be much true ,and one can compare toscripture and find how little is true and why :-

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

God is not even ready for all Israel yet, the kingdom has to be set up with the few first , get the kings and priests ready first ...

Not my point. Paul says specifically, Gentiles are new covenant members.

Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Paul's description of how the allegory applies makes us children of promise, and thus members of the covenant.

Originally Posted by stranger

Yes,well sorry you didn't get what I was saying, I hope it is clearer now that I wasn't challenging Paul's allegory , simply highlighting the facts upon which it is based ...

Sorry you didn't get what I was saying, I hope it is clearer now that I was pointing out Paul actually stated the reverse of your assertion, simply highlighting the facts of what it says.

stranger · #9 29th May 2009, 11:19 PM

Lets try taking one point at a time , and leave out the accusations please , as they are pointless :-

Yes my friend, Paul is apostle to the gentiles, trying to teach gentiles about the role of the House of Israel in their salvation... it doesn't mean the gentiles are saved first ... they cannot be so because Jesus says all those saved first, sealed by the spirit under grace , are desecndants of Jacobs sons, by name [Rev 7:3-8] and there are few of them [also Matt 7:14. Jude 1:14], just 144,000 all of the tribes of Israel by name of the sons of Jacob.

The gentiles when saved are not few, but countlkess many [Rev 7:9-10] so they go by the broad way , not the narrow way of the few ...

OK see if you can see this or not first, before we go further ...please.

heymikey80 · #10 30th May 2009, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by stranger

Lets try taking one point at a time , and leave out the accusations please , as they are pointless :-

I'd agree, the exchange of accustaions is pointless in comparison.

Originally Posted by stranger

Yes my friend, Paul is apostle to the gentiles, trying to teach gentiles about the role of the House of Israel in their salvation...

... Paul's an Apostle first. He's tasked with Gentiles, that doesn't restrict him to them, quite the opposite.

Paul's points run far beyond telling Gentiles about the role of the House of Israel. Paul's points apply directly to the Gentiles for the New Covenant.

Originally Posted by stranger

it doesn't mean the gentiles are saved first ...

Romans 11 points out that Gentiles are coming into the Gospel Covenant due to the stumbling of the Jewish people. "So Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking." Gentiles ended up first, because stumbling came to the Jewish people.

Originally Posted by stranger

they cannot be so because Jesus says all those saved first, sealed by the spirit under grace , are desecndants of Jacobs sons, by name [Rev 7:3-8] and there are few of them [also Matt 7:14. Jude 1:14], just 144,000 all of the tribes of Israel by name of the sons of Jacob.

This is well after the salvation of numerous Gentiles.

This is on earth after the salvation of numerous Gentiles.

Originally Posted by stranger

The gentiles when saved are not few, but countlkess many [Rev 7:9-10] so they go by the broad way , not the narrow way of the few ...

Meanwhile, in heaven, the multitude are seen afterward worshipping the Lamb. The Tribulation has gone before, in Rev. 6. These are those who have come to Christ, either up through the Tribulation, or through the Tribulation itself. They're in heaven.

The 144,000 are on earth.

Gentiles before Jewish believers.