Abortion is always the killing of a human being that has a soul. When you get an abortion, you are murdering an unborn child.
Not according to the definition of the word 'murder'. Also, if you do take that position, how many women will then be arrested for manslaughter? Surely going to an abortion clinic is just as bad as having a lifestyle that results in abortion?
FundamentalBaptistLady: I hope you boycott fastfood, because I am willing to bet a hefty sum fast food is responsible for more abortions than abortion clinics.
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible
Originally Posted by Faith Guardian
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When I heard a fellow Christian say "We must bomb our enemies!" I asked myself: What would Jesus do? Would Jesus torture? Would Jesus bomb or wage war? No. He loves us all, and came to give life, love, hope and salvation. Not hatred, death and damnation. Jesus called us to be His servants on earth, to follow Him in His loving and caring ways. To love when all others hate. Can we as Christians claim both to serve Him and to support torture and war? I think there is too large a gap for this to be possible. If we love and serve Jesus, we love and serve our fellow man. Including our enemies.
I firmly believe we cannot both serve Jesus and war, strife and hatred. We must choose. I choose Jesus, and I choose love.
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Just like we have to accept the conclusion/consequence for ANY sin -- lying, adultery, lust, gluttony, not remembering the sabbath, etc. Wages of [all] sin is death. Now, do I agree with MAN exercising God's authority to judge, especially after He sent His Son to take on our sentence? Absolutely not. UNLESS it is lawfully allowed and ordained by God. Pre-Christ people stoned and killed those that murdered and raped because it serves several purposes:
1. It nips sin in the bud
2. It shows others what the consequence are, and reduces the probability of more frequent occurrences of ALL types of iniquity
3. It sends whomever committed the crime BACK TO THE FATHER FOR JUDGMENT.
Now, Christ has fulfilled the law so that we can live by the Grace of God, and have forgiveness. Abortion means exactly what it means: the action of stopping, in this case the conception and maturity of a conceived human. No matter if it is from contraceptives or other means. We can't sugar coat God's world to fit with our lives: thats [borderline] blasphemy.
But, just because someone has had an abortion does NOT mean they are doomed. If that is the case, then liars, adulterers, tyrants, non-sabbath worshipers, etc. would ALL be doomed. If earth was REALLY a reflection of God's plan, then we would have ALL EVILS EQUALLY PUNISHABLE UNDER THE LAW. This is the way God does it.
The fact that we almost promote little white lies (e.g. Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc.), but scold those who have abortions, homosexuals, "real" murderers, rapists, etc. It's hypocrisy. The evidence of conception birth can be seen from Exodus 21:22-22
and in Job 31:1-15, Psalm 139, Psalm 51:5, Judges 13:7, and Exodus 1:15 - 20 (This section shows condemnation for partial abortion).
I gave biblical evidence because I figured it would be more valuable to you as a Christian. If you want "scientific" proof, or the opinions of men, good luck bro. I'm not sure if you posted to get real thought provoking insight on the topic, or if you just wanted to see what other people thought (without the intention of considering entertaining anything else). Hopefully you will come to whatever you are supposed to come to, whatever wisdom you are supposed to get.
God bless, and I hope you find what you are supposed to find.
Hey brother, thanks for your reply. Yeah, naturally the bible does carry weight with me. But I find that as God created this universe and everything in it we can find out a lot about God, ourselves and our own fallibility by studying creation objectively. We can, for example, conclude that an interpretation of Isiah chapter 40 saying the world is flat (despite this being linguistically correct) is wrong through simple observation.
The world is round, even if you can read Isaiah chapter 40 in a literal fashion and end up believing it is flat.
Call it one method of correcting for human fallibility. In many cases we can see that the bible as God's word is verified by creation itself, which according to Genesis in a way is God's word (He spoke and it popped into existence. What then is creation but an echo of God's voice and words?)
How is this relevant to abortion? Well, not really all that much. But the approach is.
If we say a human being comes into existence as a sperm fertilizes an egg, (and I am not saying it isn´t) then we need to treat a pregnancy - and sex - accordingly. We don't.
I am not saying that abortion is not wrong, I think it is.
I am merely asking the following question: If a sperm/egg melted together is a human being, how then can you defend eating fast food/junk food/unhealthy food or leading a generally unhealthy lifestyle as this can cause abortions?
If you're killed by your mom going to an abortion clinic, or by her eating too many burgers at McDonald's, you're just as dead. So why aren't the 'pro lifers' doing something to increase the life quality/health of people to minimize this kind of abortions?
They don't. In fact, many pro-lifers are strong advocates for the status quo when it comes to social structure and the causes of the bad lifestyles we see are so frequent in the US and the rest of the west.
I see a discrepancy here, and I wish to have it adressed.
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible
Originally Posted by Faith Guardian
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When I heard a fellow Christian say "We must bomb our enemies!" I asked myself: What would Jesus do? Would Jesus torture? Would Jesus bomb or wage war? No. He loves us all, and came to give life, love, hope and salvation. Not hatred, death and damnation. Jesus called us to be His servants on earth, to follow Him in His loving and caring ways. To love when all others hate. Can we as Christians claim both to serve Him and to support torture and war? I think there is too large a gap for this to be possible. If we love and serve Jesus, we love and serve our fellow man. Including our enemies.
I firmly believe we cannot both serve Jesus and war, strife and hatred. We must choose. I choose Jesus, and I choose love.
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Yea, I haven't seen any convincing biblical evidence of this, especially since most people don't read the Hebrew and/or Greek translations from the manuscripts. Naturally, things seem confusing at first read to many people.
Oh, it can seem confusing at tenth read to quite a few
There's a lot of debate around several different things. When a person should be baptized for example. You'd think that after almost 2000 years of reading the bible we'd at least have figured that much out. Not so though...
Originally Posted by BokuWaKurohyou
And, you can especially see God's word verified if you learn one of his "cosmic languages" (math, cosmology, physics, chemistry, biology)
Ah! Finally someone who understands! I find few who think like that, and it's a real refresher when I find someone who does.
Part of the reason why I quit my job as an IT consultant to study nanotechnology is because I wanted to know God more. To know about Him and His work. And given that I see His signature very clearly in math, chemistry, physics and biology nanotechnology was the natural choice. Loads of physics. Loads of math. Loads of chemistry. And quite a bit of molecular and cellular biology.
Some people find it a bit strange that I delight so in those things. But bro, to me it is like worship. To me, working and reading about those things really helps me focus on the Lord.
Originally Posted by BokuWaKurohyou
kinda depressing isn't it? Yea bro I agree, the issue necessarily isn't about abortion (although it is highly important), the issue is about the hypocrisy that persecutes many Christians. We want badly for people to take us seriously, but how can they when some Christians don't practice what they preach? We are supposed to be spiritual leaders on this earth for ourselves and others so that people will see our peace, how we live our lives, and they will come to God on their own accord because they want to. Instead, you have people force-feeding God down people's throats with a backdrop of doom if you don't submit to him, coupled by a requirement to live a perfectly blameless life "without fun". No wonder so many people say "no thanks."
Hear ye.
There are scandals every other day in the Church, the bible is constantly ridiculed and vulnerable to attack because some of our brothers and sisters aren't knowledgable in the word. Its funny: when I used to be green in the word, I would get atheists attacking me left and right, challenging me on bible doctrine I couldn't apologize for. Now, I am much more knowledgable, but no atheists. No Challenges. Satan knows when we are vulnerable, and when we will let our pride take over. I believe he uses these hypocritical pro-lifers as ammunition against Christianity.
Yes, I feel the same way. When I made my earlier posts I was in the middle of a tough spot in regards to that actually. My faith was under attack. Not from the outside, but from within. From other Christians. I speak of hypocrisy, of selfishness disguised as charity, of greed, pride and arrogance.
To be honest it had me in a fit of rage for quite a while. One example of what had me enraged: Rich congregation member in a congregation I know of was revealed to be a pedophile. The church leadership supported HIM, and chastised, punished even almost kicked his victims out of the church.
He was the chief donor to the congregation, and the pastor had a fair bit of money himself due to this man's contribution.
Now that's just an example of several things which had me furious. I feel it is a good one though as it illustrates the situation in a very clear manner.
The pedophile was arrested and convicted by the way. And there was much much grief over the decision the congregation's leadership made to stand with him against his victims.
I kinda got the feeling from reading your original post that you didn't really care about abortion being at conception so much as the hypocrisy that accompanies it from other pro-lifers. If thats, true then I respect that a lot. There should be more talk about spiritual refinement on this site, rather than some of the other topics I have seen. Besides, now more than ever we need ALL of our brothers and sisters on the same spiritual page because we [are definitely going to] need each other.
It was indeed the hypocrisy I wanted to put a spotlight on. Not abortion itself.
Originally Posted by BokuWaKurohyou
Soon, we won't have the luxury of bickering with each other about doctrine.
I wonder why we do it. Why fight among ourselves? We're supposed to be known for our love, our compassion, our humility and our service to others. Instead we're loud, boisterous, proud, selfish and greedy.
Humbling to know God still loves us sinners, isn't it?
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible
Originally Posted by Faith Guardian
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When I heard a fellow Christian say "We must bomb our enemies!" I asked myself: What would Jesus do? Would Jesus torture? Would Jesus bomb or wage war? No. He loves us all, and came to give life, love, hope and salvation. Not hatred, death and damnation. Jesus called us to be His servants on earth, to follow Him in His loving and caring ways. To love when all others hate. Can we as Christians claim both to serve Him and to support torture and war? I think there is too large a gap for this to be possible. If we love and serve Jesus, we love and serve our fellow man. Including our enemies.
I firmly believe we cannot both serve Jesus and war, strife and hatred. We must choose. I choose Jesus, and I choose love.
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humanity knows whats right but they just dont want to listen, killing is wrong
and yes it is alive...how can u even argue its not
the child should NOT have to suffer for the parents irresponsibilities and stupidness
when there is a child involved it is no longer only your body, but a very special child
"I notice everyone who is for abortion has already been born" - JFK
this is just an ignorant topic for those who want to argue, even though they already lost
there are numerous Bible verse talking about God shaping you in your womb and we all have purposes (look those up yourselves...im lazy)
all mothers regret their decisions, its statistically proven
again the child should not suffer due to parents faults
humanity knows whats right but they just dont want to listen, killing is wrong
and yes it is alive...how can u even argue its not
the child should NOT have to suffer for the parents irresponsibilities and stupidness
when there is a child involved it is no longer only your body, but a very special child
"I notice everyone who is for abortion has already been born" - JFK
this is just an ignorant topic for those who want to argue, even though they already lost
there are numerous Bible verse talking about God shaping you in your womb and we all have purposes (look those up yourselves...im lazy)
all mothers regret their decisions, its statistically proven
again the child should not suffer due to parents faults
No, not all women regret abortions. Blanket statements are bad ideas.
Like I said before, I am not 'pro abortions'. But I am vehemently against strong arguments without serious basis in fact. No matter where you stand, if you aren't 200% sure you're right and you have serious, objective data supporting your position then don't say things that strongly. Period. It undermines your position and your credibility. In fact such strong and unfounded statements is one big reason many intelligent people refuse to come anywhere close to Christianity, or abandon the faith. So: Careful! There's a reason pride is a sin. It's really destructive. And this certainty where there is no basis for the certainty can indeed be pride.
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible
Originally Posted by Faith Guardian
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When I heard a fellow Christian say "We must bomb our enemies!" I asked myself: What would Jesus do? Would Jesus torture? Would Jesus bomb or wage war? No. He loves us all, and came to give life, love, hope and salvation. Not hatred, death and damnation. Jesus called us to be His servants on earth, to follow Him in His loving and caring ways. To love when all others hate. Can we as Christians claim both to serve Him and to support torture and war? I think there is too large a gap for this to be possible. If we love and serve Jesus, we love and serve our fellow man. Including our enemies.
I firmly believe we cannot both serve Jesus and war, strife and hatred. We must choose. I choose Jesus, and I choose love.
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Last edited by faith guardian; 13th October 2009 at 03:30 PM.
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