Few taken at Jesus' return? ... when are the many saved?

stranger · #1 2nd May 2009, 11:54 PM

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So few follow Jesus and are taken by Jesus in this life ....Jesus says how many is a 'few' in Rev 7:3-8 and we know this is literal because Enoch says it is only tens of thousands of saints , confirmed as true by Jude :-

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

[small point - Enoch wrote in Hebrew ,in which he uses the single word for 'ten thousand' , so this would more truly be translated as 'tens of thousands']

So the many [over twelve billion sinners that ever lived] go by the broad way through destruction in death , including all the sinners of the divided modern religion including any sect or denomination which ever had more than a few [144,000] followers !

mass religion of sinners thus has a very different role in God's plan than the few saints , Jesus confirms that he will not take anyone who has not stopped sinning by his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those that continue to sin may call Jesus lord and invite him in, but Jesus points out that he never knew them if they do not stop before his retur, and asks why they call him lord [meaning one that one obeys] if they do not obey him :-

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The foundation of following Jesus and naming the Christ, the strait and narrow way of the few saints is thus to depart from sinning any longer , to become all-loving in obedience to Jesus as lord, in his commandment to love, not sin.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is clear then both from Jesus own words and those of the saints , that no-one who is a sinner by Jesus return can be saved then from the broad way of the many billions of sinners that ever lived , destruction in death, the wages of sin.

BUT Jesus also says that uncountably many of all nations are saved afterward :-

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

These all went by the broad way of sin in this life , yet they are eventually saved according to Jesus ... but contrary to almost all divided modern Christian doctrine of denominations and sects !

Now the first resurrection is for the just , the saints justified by the holy spirit to stop sinning :-

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

so when are the many sinners resurrected from death and hell :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

the second resurrection is of the sinners , the unjustified unjust , over 12 billion sinners that ever lived, many of them never having even heard of Jesus in their life, many tragically having the briefest of lives...

Who then do the priests of God minister to and how are uncountably many of these sinners saved , hell having given them up ? What does Jesus say :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So something over 12 billion sinners are resurrected after the millennium , freed from sin by death , to be ministered to by the saints and Jesus in the established kingdom of God with Jesus and the priests reigning over the many :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The many then are free from sin before death and judged by works in the kingdom where they have a perfect ministry by saints to rule and guide them into a loving righteous life of good works by which they will be judged...

Clearly then the many do not require grace, but are judged by works, so where does it say that only the few receive grace ? The answer is the new covenant of grace itself , it says explicitly that it is only with those whose ancestors broke the old covenant, and that the two rejected parts of Israel , the House of Judah ('Jews') and the lost people of the House of Israel are now forgiven...

Jesus confirms in Rev 7:3-8 that the few are indeed all descendants of Jacob , from the named tribes of Israel...

Thus the salvation of the many sinners of this world depends on the earlier salvation of a remnant few of the tribes of Israel at Jesus' return...

The few are first because they must be readied to rule and minister to billions , and God's promise, handed down through the Hebrews to a remnant few [sometimes only one] in each generation, is thus kept, according to Jesus' own revelation :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The OT and NT are thus indeed one truth of God ... [but the story in scripture of the reason God gives for apostate modern religion of the many sinners of this world and their sinner priesthoods is large enough for a separate thread ]

Yuyuchan · #2 16th May 2009, 11:10 AM

Okay. I understand what you are saying, but could you explain further, so I can grasp everything that you speak of. what are you saying...I mean...I am not sure I understand what is your point? DO forgive my ignorance. Ia m seeking to understand.

green wolverine · #3 16th May 2009, 12:26 PM

Can't say that I follow your logic, reasoning or premise but I will tell you that my understanding of Scripture indicates that it's the remnant that shall be saved indicating a small portion in comparison to the number who have ever lived.

As far as the millenium and whatnot, I don't know that I believe the Book of Revelation should be taken as literally as most people do. If you go back and read people like Puritan pastor Matthew Henry who wrote an entire commentary on the Bible, you'll find that the church didn't start believing in dispensationalism until about 200 years ago.

stranger · #4 17th May 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Yuyuchan

Okay. I understand what you are saying, but could you explain further, so I can grasp everything that you speak of. what are you saying...I mean...I am not sure I understand what is your point? DO forgive my ignorance. Ia m seeking to understand.

Matt 7:13-14 says few take the narrow strait way [these then they of teh first resurrection, saints, justified, just, sealed -Rev 7:3-8], but the many go to destruction in death by the broad way and cannot live again until the second resurrection, of the unjust[those who were sinners in this life...

But Jesus says countless MANY are saved [Rev 7:9-10] , thus destruction in death is NOT the end of salvation, as many religious traditions claim, Jesus says that countless many are saved after the Millenium as well as the few saved at his return

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Not only is no-one left in hell, but countless many are saved after hell gives up the dead :-

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So the few are saved by grace , the many are much later saved by works [in the kingdom where the few minister as priests and kings to the many]

The scripture shows in Jesus' own words of revelation that most modern Christian religious tardition has it completely wrong ...

stranger · #5 17th May 2009, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by green wolverine

Can't say that I follow your logic, reasoning or premise

Please state what is not clear , my only premise is what is written in scripture as being the words of Jesus and the saints and prophets of God

but I will tell you that my understanding of Scripture indicates that it's the remnant that shall be saved indicating a small portion in comparison to the number who have ever lived.

Indeed the remnant of Israel are saved first, because of God's prophecy that it will be the children [descendants] of Israel who will be the priests and kings in the kingdom come [Exodus 16:9, 1Pet 2:9-10, Rev 5:10] ... but one should consider what use 144,000 kings and priests without masses to minister to and rule ?

Jesus makes it clear that the many are saved too [Rev 7:9-10], but after the kingdom is set up ... it does not seem unreasonable to set up the kingdom first before attempting to save billions by its ministry , it would seem unreasonable to set up priests and then give them nothing to do , since God teaches them all they need to know [Jer 31:34, Heb 8:12]

Besides the rest of Israel , numbered as 'the sand of the sea', there are billions of gentiles whose salvation depends upon the 'Jews' :-

Isaiah 52:10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Most people already died without seeing salvation in any way , they cannot all see it until they are all resurrected after the Millennium...

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Now the Jews are mentioned [as the House of Judah] in the new covenant with Israel [Jer 31:31-34] , some Jews clearly are among the 144,000 in Rev 7:3-8] along with a remnant few descendants of the House of Israel , but the many are not mentioned in the new covenant , so not saved by grace , but by works ... they could not even begin those works until freed of sin by death ...and then resurrection to the kingdom to be ministered to by Israel ... what use a nation of holy priests otherwise ? [Exodus 19:6]

As far as the Millennium and whatnot, I don't know that I believe the Book of Revelation should be taken as literally as most people do. If you go back and read people like Puritan pastor Matthew Henry who wrote an entire commentary on the Bible, you'll find that the church didn't start believing in dispensationalism until about 200 years ago

What I've pointed out in scripture is very DIFFERENT than 'dispensationalism'... it is simply taking the scripture in the sense it explains itself, without interpretation , using only deduction of meaning from what the scripture states ... unsurprisingly, the word of ONE God is ONE truth , there are no 'dispensations'...

God simply had to name someone who would be the priests and kings who ministered in the salvation of the many in his kingdom come upon earth , not for their sake, but for His sake , to show the power of His word in prophecy..

God named Israel , so they will be His priests and kings... but there seriously would be no point if they had no-one to rule, no-one to minister to...

Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Isaiah 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

Isaiah 50:2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Jeremiah 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

one could go on, but is the point not perhaps clear, not just Israel are saved, but the salvation of Israel is first because they minister and rule in the later salvation of the gentiles ... ?