Hate Crimes Bill

dies-l · #1 30th April 2009, 05:12 PM

This seems to be a pretty emotional issue, especially amng Conservatives. But, it seems that the emotionalism on both sides of issues such as these sometimes creates a distorted picture of what is really going on and makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion. So, I am wondering what other moderates think of the "hate crimes bill" that passed the House today. Some Conservatives seem to think that it is the death knell of free speech in America. I haven't heard much from Liberals, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some who hope it will be the death knell of free speech.

Having read it, I don't see anything to be all that concerned about here, but I am interested in what other moderates think of this.

Texas Lynn · #2 4th May 2009, 05:46 PM

I think the accusation this bill will affect free speech issues at all is prevarication of the most cynically manipulative type.

dies-l · #3 4th May 2009, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Texas Lynn

I think the accusation this bill will affect free speech issues at all is prevarication of the most cynically manipulative type.

Certainly, I agree with you that it is not a "free speech" issue. I also agree with you that those who treat it as a free speech issue tend to be on the cynical side of life. However, I am yet undecided whether is truly deliberate dihonesty for the purpose of manipulation or whether it is an honest misunderstanding fueled by a cynical worldview.

I suspect that the accusation started out as dishonsty. But, it seems that a fair number of people have come to sincerely believe that their right to express their opinions is at stake.

I am interested to see what other moderate Christians think about this.

Texas Lynn · #4 5th May 2009, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by dies-l

Certainly, I agree with you that it is not a "free speech" issue. I also agree with you that those who treat it as a free speech issue tend to be on the cynical side of life. However, I am yet undecided whether is truly deliberate dihonesty for the purpose of manipulation or whether it is an honest misunderstanding fueled by a cynical worldview.

I suspect that the accusation started out as dishonsty. But, it seems that a fair number of people have come to sincerely believe that their right to express their opinions is at stake.

They've been punk'd.

Izdaari · #5 5th May 2009, 03:51 AM

I don't see anything in the bill that restricts freedom of speech. It restricts "willfully causing bodily harm", but that's a good thing.

Texas Lynn · #6 5th May 2009, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Izdaari

I don't see anything in the bill that restricts freedom of speech. It restricts "willfully causing bodily harm", but that's a good thing.

That seems to be a reasoned analysis. But the "sky is falling" people are not responding to rational things.

AzA · #7 5th May 2009, 03:11 PM

HR 1913 (now S 909) does not criminalize speech, thought, or private doctrine. It doesn't even criminalize violent crimes of bias because those have been well-defined and criminal in this country since the 1960s.

What it does do is allow federal law enforcement agencies to support state prosecution of these crimes with resources and funding. It adds another four protected classes to the original four. It limits the maximum possible sentencing for these crimes such that the death penalty is not in play. And it loosens some restrictions on when a crime can be called a hate crime and treated as such.

That is all.

I don't mind if people object to these things because they are antifederalist, or because they don't like the idea of certain groups of people being singled out under any circumstances -- though when you find me someone who is consistent about that, let me know.

I do mind people misreading the law and teaching others to misread it. There are significant responsibilities associated with teaching and that is why not everyone should do it.

ChristianCritic · #8 5th May 2009, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by dies-l

This seems to be a pretty emotional issue, especially amng Conservatives. But, it seems that the emotionalism on both sides of issues such as these sometimes creates a distorted picture of what is really going on and makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion. So, I am wondering what other moderates think of the "hate crimes bill" that passed the House today. Some Conservatives seem to think that it is the death knell of free speech in America. I haven't heard much from Liberals, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some who hope it will be the death knell of free speech.

Having read it, I don't see anything to be all that concerned about here, but I am interested in what other moderates think of this.

It's definitely not the "death knell" of free speech, but I understand the concerns of some conservatives that it could lead to legislation that punishes "hate speech." Regarding the specific issue of whether it is fair and beneficial to punish the same act of violence more severely if it is motivated by hatred for a particular group, on one hand, I don't think that the lives and well-being of minority groups are "worth more" than that of non-minorities (which is what some opponents of hate crime bills suggest the bill stands for). I do think that the motivation for a crime can be a factor in determining sentences. For example, second degree "in the heat of passion" murder has a lower sentence than first degree "premeditated" muder. Also, if an offender is motivated by hatred towards an entire group as opposed to a single individual, then that offender is more likely to become a recidivist because there are so many more victims to target and those victims need not do anything to provoke the offender--what the offender finds offensive is something inherent to the victim's group.

ChristianCritic · #9 5th May 2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by dies-l

This seems to be a pretty emotional issue, especially amng Conservatives. But, it seems that the emotionalism on both sides of issues such as these sometimes creates a distorted picture of what is really going on and makes it difficult to have a meaningful discussion. So, I am wondering what other moderates think of the "hate crimes bill" that passed the House today. Some Conservatives seem to think that it is the death knell of free speech in America. I haven't heard much from Liberals, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some who hope it will be the death knell of free speech.

Having read it, I don't see anything to be all that concerned about here, but I am interested in what other moderates think of this.

I do want to say for the record that while I have no problem with hate crime bills, I do oppose criminalizing hate speech or penalizing people for being politically incorrect. I do believe that freedom of speech is ultimately beneficial for everyone, and that even a racist has a greater chance of changing his viewpoints if he has a chance to air them out and discuss them with others. I highly recommend reading "On Liberty" by John Stuart Mill--there is a section in that treatise on Freedom of Speech and Discussion.

spinningtutu · #10 28th July 2009, 01:42 AM

I think the bill was long overdue :-)