Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Congregation > Faith Groups > The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics A forum for all liberal Catholics.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29th April 2009, 11:03 PM
tinythinker's Avatar
Guest

Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 16th June 2008
Posts: 158
Blessings: 41,493
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 22,204,316 (power: 22,208)
tinythinker has disabled reputation
God in solidarity with those who suffer

How important is this in your faith/relationship with the Divine? What do you think of the basic principle behind liberation theology - a preferential option for the poor, the prisoner, the hungry, and the oppressed?
__________________

Reply With Quote
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 5th May 2009, 03:58 PM
Yardstick's Avatar
Anglo-Catholic

23 Gender: Male Faith: Anglican Party: US-Green Country: United States Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 12th October 2008
Posts: 269
Blessings: 46,731
Reps: 686,358,889 (power: 686,362)
Yardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond repute
Yardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond repute
I believe Christ meant what he said: "I tell you the truth. Anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me."
__________________
Christianity is counter-cultural.

St. Basil on theft:
"When someone strips a man of his clothes we call him a thief. And one who might clothe the naked and does not -- should he not be given the same name? The bread in your board belongs to the hungry: the cloak in your wardrobe belongs to the naked, the shoes you let rot belong to the barefoot; the money in your vaults belongs to the destitute."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 5th May 2009, 11:41 PM
Protinus's Avatar
...once more unto the breach dear friends

52 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Democrat Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 13th April 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 6,535
Blessings: 151,542
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 51,530,185,439 (power: 51,530,199)
Protinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond repute
Protinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond repute
Liberation Theology has its beginnings in South America and has its censorship quite literally and symbolized evisceration with the disciplining (and Church censorship) of Fr. Jon Sobrino, an advocate for the poor and a Jesuit.
It was said that Archbishop was the "dupe of the Jesuits and Marxists" as he was ginned downed in El Salvador in 1980 by government militia, who was an outspoken and a champion for the underclasses who where experiencign crushing poverty.

Who said it? The Vatican's Representative in El Salvador.
__________________
"The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

John 1:5
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 6th May 2009, 12:14 AM
Critical loyalist

8 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Country: United States Member For 5 Years Fisherman
 
Join Date: 18th April 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 9,966
Blessings: 79,943
My Mood Grumpy
Reps: 82,864,414,902 (power: 82,864,433)
fragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond repute
fragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond reputefragmentsofdreams has a reputation beyond repute
I do agree with at least some of the principles of Liberation Theology, but I cannot say much about its history.

I do believe that God is in solidarity with those who suffer. God raises the humble and dashes the mighty.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 6th May 2009, 12:39 AM
Protinus's Avatar
...once more unto the breach dear friends

52 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Democrat Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 13th April 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 6,535
Blessings: 151,542
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 51,530,185,439 (power: 51,530,199)
Protinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond repute
Protinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond reputeProtinus has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by tinythinker View Post
How important is this in your faith/relationship with the Divine? What do you think of the basic principle behind liberation theology - a preferential option for the poor, the prisoner, the hungry, and the oppressed?
I do. I believe in the tenets and the need for Liberation Theology for the oppressed poor.

And Ratzinger was central in the campaign against Liberation Theology for decades and almost finished it off for good. He censored the ailing Spanish Jesuit Fr. Sobrino in 2007 who was almost murdered along with 6 other fathers by an ElSalvador government death squad. Pope Benedict condemned him for "not sufficiently emphasizing the divinity of Christ".
__________________
"The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

John 1:5
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 6th May 2009, 10:21 AM
Yardstick's Avatar
Anglo-Catholic

23 Gender: Male Faith: Anglican Party: US-Green Country: United States Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 12th October 2008
Posts: 269
Blessings: 46,731
Reps: 686,358,889 (power: 686,362)
Yardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond repute
Yardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond reputeYardstick has a reputation beyond repute
^Do you have a good website about liberation theology? I don't feel like I've gotten enough good information about it. It sounds like the kinda thing I'd be into though.
__________________
Christianity is counter-cultural.

St. Basil on theft:
"When someone strips a man of his clothes we call him a thief. And one who might clothe the naked and does not -- should he not be given the same name? The bread in your board belongs to the hungry: the cloak in your wardrobe belongs to the naked, the shoes you let rot belong to the barefoot; the money in your vaults belongs to the destitute."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 6th May 2009, 03:44 PM
tinythinker's Avatar
Guest

Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 16th June 2008
Posts: 158
Blessings: 41,493
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 22,204,316 (power: 22,208)
tinythinker has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by Yardstick View Post
^Do you have a good website about liberation theology? I don't feel like I've gotten enough good information about it. It sounds like the kinda thing I'd be into though.
From the time of Contact through Colonialism and into the post-Colonial era, racism, colorism, and classism, have been a very part of the social reality for most of Latin America. Among the poorest of the poor, then, tend to be those of strong indigenous heritage and those considered to be “mixed” (mestizos). After the official end of colonialism, foreign nations still strongly influenced the politics of Latin America, primarily to benefit their own interests. Eventually foreign companies began investing more heavily in the region.

In some cases companies paid off the governments to look the other way regarding their business practices, such as taking land, polluting on the land of local farmers, and the horrible treatment of the workers. The premiere example was The United Fruit Company (now Chiquita), which engaged in various forms of illegal and unethical practices to boost production and profits on their banana plantations. Hence the coining of the term “banana republic”, which refers to a politically unstable government run by a corrupt elite in which bribes and kickbacks trump the rule of law. And the people who suffered the most were the poor and disenfranchised, who could not afford justice.

This was of course a ripe situation for Marxist leaders who pointed to the destruction and pollution of the land, theft of the land, dangerous working conditions, the failure of the rule of law, etc, as evidence of the failures of unrestrained capitalism. It was in this atmosphere that Liberation Theology was born. There are different ways of interpreting it. For some, it meant joining with the Marxists. For others, it meant simply doing whatever was in the best interest of the poor regardless of political affiliation. The basic premise, however, was that God has a preferential option for the poor (and the imprisoned, and the tortured, and ill, etc), as expressed in numerous places in the Old Testament and in key lessons from the Gospels such as the Sermon on the Mount.

Eventually revolutions erupted through Latin America over many decades, including some particularly protracted and brutal conflicts. Because of the politics of the Cold War, the US was more interested in protecting its business interests and any allies who claimed to be “against the Communists”, even if such allies were dictators. Hence the US, primarily via the CIA, tended to support whoever was fighting the Marxists. This included teaching various techniques for psychological terror and torture, which eventually was used by both sides to commit terrible atrocities.

Partly because of the association with Marxism, and because of Pope John Paul II’s experiences with the Communists in his home country of Poland, that pope wasn’t well-disposed to Liberation Theology. Ratzinger really didn’t like it at all, even though there are some versions/expressions of it that don’t fit his criticisms/concerns. There are plenty of sources for detailed theology and history, but I don’t know enough about them to recommend one for an introduction. So here are just a few I found that may or may not be useful...

Liberation theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Liberation Theology Resources Online

A Concise History of Liberation Theology

Preliminary Notes on Liberation Theology by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger

Liberation Theology (by Ron Rhodes)
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 3rd September 2009, 10:26 PM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Christian Party: CA-NDP Country: Canada Member For 2 Years
 
Join Date: 29th August 2009
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 12
Blessings: 59,947
Reps: 337,590,398 (power: 337,593)
Seeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond repute
Seeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond reputeSeeker100 has a reputation beyond repute
What you did to the least of these you did to me.

Originally Posted by Yardstick View Post
I believe Christ meant what he said: "I tell you the truth. Anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me."
Good Post!!!

Seeker100
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 5th September 2009, 11:41 AM
Newbie

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: AU-Greens Country: Australia Member For 2 Years
 
Join Date: 5th September 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 32
Blessings: 61,223
Reps: 29,563,860 (power: 29,566)
greg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond repute
greg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond reputegreg300 has a reputation beyond repute
I think liberation theology is very much in line with the Gospel and the Bible generally. The Bible constantly speaks of the need to care for the poor and marginalised in society and to fail to do so (or to rip poor people off) is a serious transgression of the covenant God made with Israel and which the prophets constantly denounce with immense and righteous anger. The New Testament also shows over and over again how Jesus reaches out in his ministries to the poor, the sick, and the marginalised, not to mention God's own choice to incarnate the Word in a poor and marginal woman at the fringes of society, no better shown in the Gospel of Luke and Mary's magnificent hymn to God's liberating justice and kindness to the poor. In a more negative sense, we have the famous parable of the sheep and goats by Jesus in Matthew's Gosepl, on which the final judgement will be done very much on how much compassion and love we showed the sick, the naked, and the hungry. Likewise in all of the canonical NT letters the church's ministry to the poor is emphasized as one of its core functions. Perhaps the letter of St James is the best example of this, as he warns quite solmenly those who marginalise the poor will risk damnation. Similarly many church fathers such as Chrysotom and Basil and saints and saintly people such as St Francis, Meister Eckhart, Thomas Aquinas, St John of the Cross, St Ignatius of Loyola, St Padre Pio, and countless others showed love of the poor and a concern for justice to be very much at the core of their theology. Such a tradition is also continued through the best of the social teaching in the encyclicals of the Popes, particularly Pope John Paul II.

I think it is unfortunate that liberation theology has been accused of somehow being tainted by atheism or Marxism when it seems to reflect much of the core teaching of the Bible and also of Christian tradition. I also think the Christian churches should not overlook the many valid criticisms Marx and Engels made of capitalism and the greed and social injustice it can foster. The current global economic situation and the imbalances between rich and poor in the world should remind us of that.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 7th September 2009, 09:04 PM
tinythinker's Avatar
Guest

Member For 3 Years
 
Join Date: 16th June 2008
Posts: 158
Blessings: 41,493
My Mood Pensive
Reps: 22,204,316 (power: 22,208)
tinythinker has disabled reputation
Originally Posted by greg300 View Post
I think liberation theology is very much in line with the Gospel and the Bible generally. The Bible constantly speaks of the need to care for the poor and marginalised in society and to fail to do so (or to rip poor people off) is a serious transgression of the covenant God made with Israel and which the prophets constantly denounce with immense and righteous anger. The New Testament also shows over and over again how Jesus reaches out in his ministries to the poor, the sick, and the marginalised, not to mention God's own choice to incarnate the Word in a poor and marginal woman at the fringes of society, no better shown in the Gospel of Luke and Mary's magnificent hymn to God's liberating justice and kindness to the poor. In a more negative sense, we have the famous parable of the sheep and goats by Jesus in Matthew's Gosepl, on which the final judgement will be done very much on how much compassion and love we showed the sick, the naked, and the hungry. Likewise in all of the canonical NT letters the church's ministry to the poor is emphasized as one of its core functions. Perhaps the letter of St James is the best example of this, as he warns quite solmenly those who marginalise the poor will risk damnation. Similarly many church fathers such as Chrysotom and Basil and saints and saintly people such as St Francis, Meister Eckhart, Thomas Aquinas, St John of the Cross, St Ignatius of Loyola, St Padre Pio, and countless others showed love of the poor and a concern for justice to be very much at the core of their theology. Such a tradition is also continued through the best of the social teaching in the encyclicals of the Popes, particularly Pope John Paul II.

I think it is unfortunate that liberation theology has been accused of somehow being tainted by atheism or Marxism when it seems to reflect much of the core teaching of the Bible and also of Christian tradition. I also think the Christian churches should not overlook the many valid criticisms Marx and Engels made of capitalism and the greed and social injustice it can foster. The current global economic situation and the imbalances between rich and poor in the world should remind us of that.
Some versions/individuals have been tainted with support of violence, but those minimal fringes shouldn't be used to discredit the whole movement any more than nominal Christians doing terrible things shouldn't be used to discredit Christianity as a whole.

I have only read the intro and first chapter of Caritas in vertitate but from what some have said, ironically it sounds like parts of it are actually in line with liberation theology as well despite what Benedict wrote as Cardinal Ratzinger.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Return to The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:56 AM.