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1st May 2009, 12:24 AM
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Reps: 438,424,544,228,374 (power: 438,424,544,231) | | Originally Posted by genez  Please.. Define your definition of "the universe." What constitutes, "the Universe?"
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Lets assume the definition of the universe is the existence of matter; it still has no bearing the age of the states of that matter. My age is not determined by the length of time the particles that make me up have existed, otherwise we'd all be billions of years old (according to current universe beginning dating fun times). Likewise, to look at recent thread here, the dating of ice cores is not determined by the age of the water, but by the length of time it has been in that state. |
1st May 2009, 12:47 AM
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Reps: 40,741,260,280,236,496 (power: 40,741,260,280,253) | | Originally Posted by Siyha Lets assume the definition of the universe is the existence of matter; it still has no bearing the age of the states of that matter. My age is not determined by the length of time the particles that make me up have existed,
The nature of those particles are not eternal to begin with. otherwise we'd all be billions of years old (according to current universe beginning dating fun times). Likewise, to look at recent thread here, the dating of ice cores is not determined by the age of the water, but by the length of time it has been in that state.
What matter existed eternally?
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1st May 2009, 01:01 AM
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Reps: 438,424,544,228,374 (power: 438,424,544,231) | | Originally Posted by genez The nature of those particles are not eternal to begin with.
Please explain how this relates to determing the age of say..... a person. Originally Posted by genez What matter existed eternally?
In this hypothetical universe, whatever matter you want  |
1st May 2009, 01:24 AM
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Reps: 882,264,356 (power: 882,267) | | | I think it's amazing that the same people who believe rocks can be eternal believe that God cannot. Since entropy increases more or less constantly in a closed system and since the totality of the universe constitutes a closed system, then matter cannot be eternal because it is in a constant state of increasing entropy. Since matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed, only changed in form, then scientifically the universe could not have a beginning. Neither could it be eternal. That leaves two options.
1. The universe does not exist.
2, The universe was created by forces beyond our understanding, capable of superceding the laws of physics.
You can pretend that the universe just popped out of nothingness and came to be if you want to. Me? I need a little more rational explanation. I find it a lot easier to believe in God than in eternal rocks. |
1st May 2009, 02:06 AM
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Reps: 257,463,246,207,844,928 (power: 257,463,246,207,853) | | I think it's amazing that the same people who believe rocks can be eternal believe that God cannot. Since entropy increases more or less constantly in a closed system and since the totality of the universe constitutes a closed system, then matter cannot be eternal because it is in a constant state of increasing entropy. Since matter/energy can neither be created or destroyed, only changed in form, then scientifically the universe could not have a beginning. Neither could it be eternal. That leaves two options.
1. The universe does not exist.
2, The universe was created by forces beyond our understanding, capable of superceding the laws of physics.
You can pretend that the universe just popped out of nothingness and came to be if you want to. Me? I need a little more rational explanation. I find it a lot easier to believe in God than in eternal rocks.
Your premises are flawed.
1. Matter can be created. It can also be destroyed. It is the sum total of matter and energy that remains constant. Remember e=mc^2? That details the relationship. A huge amount of energy can form a tiny bit of matter, and a tiny amount of matter can release a huge amount of energy.
2. The entire universe may or may not constitute a closed system. One of the current theories is that gravity is so weak because gravitons 'escape' to alternate universes or something. Do I pretend to fully understand it? No. It's way way WAY outside my field. But that does not mean it is false or to be ridiculed. It just may not be quite correct. HOw we'd go about proving it, again, I don't know.
3. Entropy does not only increase. Entropy can also stand still. Ever hear of the word isentropic? Various systems can exist at states of constant entropy. It doesn't always have to be increasing. As a matter of fact, there can theoretically be a point of maximum entropy where the energy to generate more (i.e. break down matter into energy in a way that would increase entropy) isn't available.
4. Entropy measures the usable energy in a system, not the matter.
One of your conclusions is also flawed. You stated
You leave out a possible result and display a false dichotomy in the answer.
1. The universe does not exist.
2. The universe was created by forces beyond our understanding but completely in tune with physical and natural laws as of yet undiscovered by science and unknown to mankind.
3. The universe was created by forces beyond our understanding capable of superceding the laws of physics.
You left out number 2. But it is indeed possible.
Therefore, with both flawed premises and a flawed conclusion, your argument is invalid.
Also, just because entropy decreases the USABLE energy in a system, it does not mean the energy is gone, or destroyed, or whatever.
Metherion
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1st May 2009, 02:57 AM
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Reps: 26,510,215,182,048,496 (power: 26,510,215,182,059) | | Originally Posted by genez The nature of those particles are not eternal to begin with.
How do you know?
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1st May 2009, 03:11 AM
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Reps: 26,510,215,182,048,496 (power: 26,510,215,182,059) | | Originally Posted by Nutrider99 I think it's amazing that the same people who believe rocks can be eternal believe that God cannot.
Who thinks that rocks are eternal and in what context? Originally Posted by Nutrider99 1. The universe does not exist.
2, The universe was created by forces beyond our understanding, capable of superceding the laws of physics.
As was already pointed out, there is also the possibility of an unknown unintelligent agent. This could be something such as M-theory. There is also a 4th possibility, multiple gods could have created everything. Originally Posted by Nutrider99 You can pretend that the universe just popped out of nothingness and came to be if you want to.
I don't know anyone who thinks that. Do you know people who think we came from nothing? Originally Posted by Nutrider99 Me? I need a little more rational explanation. I find it a lot easier to believe in God than in eternal rocks.
So that makes your view valid? Seems like a cop out.
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1st May 2009, 03:17 AM
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Reps: 40,741,260,280,236,496 (power: 40,741,260,280,253) | | Originally Posted by philadiddle How do you know?
Might as well ask, how can you know God is real? Can he be detected or measured by a scientific tool? How do you know God is not real? Real?
Well, this is a Christian forum. God's Word would be a lie if matter were eternally existing.
Do want this to be a Christian forum? Or, were you searching for something different? Would you rather those who are capable of believing God's Word, cease doing so?
Colossians 1:15-17
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all
creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven
and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
Isn't matter a thing? Isn't energy? Interesting point. It states that all things are being held together by the Lord Himself. .
__________________ God has two dwellings:
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Izaak Walton
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1st May 2009, 03:23 AM
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Reps: 40,741,260,280,236,496 (power: 40,741,260,280,253) | | Originally Posted by Siyha Please explain how this relates to determing the age of say..... a person.
Age of a person can not be measured consistently. A person may be 90 years old, but by what we can see he may appear to be much younger. And, a young person may appear to be much older than he is. In this hypothetical universe, whatever matter you want
That's fine for the unbeliever to believe. Not good for the believer though. God holds believers to a different standard. God does not appreciate it when a believer says he is a liar. For the unbeliever to do so, its expected.
__________________ God has two dwellings:
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Izaak Walton
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1st May 2009, 03:27 AM
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Reps: 257,463,246,207,844,928 (power: 257,463,246,207,853) | | | God made everything. Including time.
While temporal words like before and after may not have meaning with no time, if God created matter and energy so that they were there when time started, they would not necessarily have a beginning and would therefore be eternal, having not been created after the start of time. Since eternal would mean having always existed, it would have existed since the beginning of time and therefore be eternal, but still be created by God.
Food for thought.
Metherion
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I can't go back to yesterday - because I was a different person then.
If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.
One of the secrets of life is that all that is really worth the doing is what we do for others.
--Lewis Carroll, all three. | | |
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