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Denomination-specific Theology A special subforum where a thread starter can restrict threads to replies by members of a particular denomination only to discuss denomination-specific theology.

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  #21  
Old 19th October 2009, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rockytriton View Post
So the people before 300 AD were not Christians? I guess they all went to hell because they had no bible to believe in.
So do you discount the writing of Paul?
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  #22  
Old 19th October 2009, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by student ad x View Post


I do not know of any Christian denomination that denies the teachings of Paul. Why don't you check out the unorthodox theology or Messianic Judaism section.

Welcome to Christian Forums.....
There are some Messianic Jews that discount the writings of Paul, I have come across them in a different site. However I cannot imagine that it would be the teaching or belief of any true believer in Christ.
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  #23  
Old 19th October 2009, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rockytriton View Post
Are there any sects out there which discount the works of "the apostle" Paul?

Churches, like the Metropolitan Community Church (which advocates for homosexuality and Christ at the same time), and sects (normally within, or associated with, a certain denomination) that focus on issues such as "Feminist" theology, do not usually try to "discount" the writings of the Apostle Paul. Rather, they attempt to convince their "faithful" that the true problem with some of Paul's Epistles lies in the orthodox interpretation of his words and that for millennia, we have failed to understand what Paul was actually trying to convey (for instance, that his words must only be applied to the culture in which they were written, not universally, to comprehend them properly). In the end, of course, it's not just Paul (or the smoke screen of incorrect translation or interpretation) they bring into question, but the authority of the Bible in general.
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  #24  
Old 28th November 2009, 01:02 AM
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I'm not aware of any normal Christian group that rejects Paul. However different groups have different priorities. I'd say the more liberal Christian denominations tend to place more emphasis on the Gospels and less on Paul.
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  #25  
Old 5th December 2009, 07:36 PM
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The Ebionites Rejected Paul
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  #26  
Old 4th May 2010, 08:53 PM
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What??? Did I scare everybody away?
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  #27  
Old 7th May 2010, 10:45 AM
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Yes. Just about ALL of them, actually. They pick a few things here and there from what Paul had to say but ignore the message he was given by Christ to preach to the Gentiles.

Paul was not of the 12 of Jesus' disciples. Jesus taught the 12 Judaism. They were under the Mosaic Law and their salvation was conditionally based on keeping the Law. Jesus told his 12 disciples that their ministry was to the Jews. (Not the Gentile dogs.)

Since the Jews failed to accept Christ as their Messiah, they couldn't complete their ministry, i.e., to take salvation to the rest of the world and make Jewish proselytes of the people of the heathen nations. (Which phased-out Judaism as the means of salvation.)

So the world wouldn't be without salvation, Christ lifted up Paul on the road to Damascus to be the apostle to the Gentile nations. The salvation message that Christ gave to Paul was a different message than He taught to his 12 disciples - to the Jews.

The 13 of them got together and agreed that the 12 disciples would go to minister to Israel and that Paul would minister to the Gentiles. (BTW- we are "Gentiles.") [ "I am the apostle to the Gentiles." ]

This ministry to the Geniles is very unique and we see for the first time:
Salvation apart from keeping the Mosaic Law.
The "Body of Christ."
Unconditional salvation. - (not Judaism's IF, THEN, ELSE )
Equality of Jew & Gentile. (Jews cast down to Gentile level.)
One baptism. (Not of water)
Heavenly position of the members of His body.
Christ as the Head of the Body.
Forgiveness of sins by the death, burial and resurrection. (Not found in Mark, Matthew, Luke nor John.)

This is a separate, unique ministry that is not a part of the salvation by Judaism. These elements were not on planet earth until Christ revealed them to Paul and made him our apostle. (It is not a continuation of the old program with a few modifications added - as is taught by the sects.)

For many years, I enjoyed reading the Old Testament but I found Paul's letters to be confusing and even contradictory. ( "I am not under the Law" - "Christ sent me not to baptize." - "By grace are ye saved through faith.")

It only seems conflicting because the sects are teaching it wrong, rejecting the ministry of Paul and taking some elements and adding them into Judaism to create a host of ungodly religions that save no one.
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  #28  
Old 9th May 2010, 04:06 AM
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The following are quotes from other sources on issues concerning Judaism, Christianity, and the false apostle Paul.
From the book,"The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception"

by Michael Bajgent and Richard Leigh (Corgi Books, London, 1991) "... Paul is in effect the first Christian heretic, and his teachings, which become the foundation of later Christianity, are a flagrant deviation from the 'Original' or 'pure' form extolled by the leadership. Whether James, the 'Lord's brother,' was literally Jesus' blood kin or not (and everything suggests he was), it is clear that he knew Jesus...personally. So did most of the other members of the community or 'early Church,' in Jerusalem, including of course, Peter. When they spoke, they did so with first hand authority. Paul had never had such personal acquaintance with the figure he'd begun to regard as his 'Savior.' He had only his quasi-mystical experience in the desert and the sound of a disembodied voice. For him to arrogate authority to himself on this basis is, to say the least, presumptuous. It also leads him to distort Jesus' teachings beyond recognition, to formulate, in fact, his own highly individual and idiosyncratic theology, and then to legitimize it by spuriously ascribing it to Jesus."
"As things transpired, however, the mainstream of the new movement gradually coalesced, during the next three centuries, around Paul and his teachings. Thus, to the undoubted posthumous horror of James and his associates, an entirely new religion was indeed born, a religion that came to have less and less to do with its supposed founder."
Thomas Jefferson

"Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
From a letter to W. Short published in The Great Thoughts by George Sildes (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985, p.208).
Albert Schweitzer

"Where possible he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the 'Our Father.' Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord."
(The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle, p. 171)
Jeremy Bentham
The renowned English philosopher , in his Not Paul But Jesus, declared:

"It rests with every professor of the religion of Jesus to settle within himself to which of the two religions, that of Jesus or that of Paul, he will adhere."

Ferdinand Christian Baur
The eminent theologian, in his Church History of the First Three Centuries, wrote:

"What kind of authority can there be for an 'apostle' who, unlike the other apostles, had never been prepared for the apostolic office in Jesus' own school but had only later dared to claim the apostolic office on the basis on his own authority? The only question comes to be how the apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus....He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears."

Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark)

"Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."
(Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991)
Carl Jung (Psychologist)

"Paul hardly ever allows the real Jesus of Nazareth to get a word in."
(U.S. News and World Report, April 22, 1991, p. 55)
Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic Scholar)
"Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism."
(The Mythmaker, Barnes & Noble, p. 16)
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  #29  
Old 9th May 2010, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Robot iMonkey View Post
The following are quotes from other sources on issues concerning Judaism, Christianity, and the false apostle Paul.
From the book,"The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception"

by Michael Bajgent and Richard Leigh (Corgi Books, London, 1991) "... Paul is in effect the first Christian heretic, and his teachings, which become the foundation of later Christianity, are a flagrant deviation from the 'Original' or 'pure' form extolled by the leadership. Whether James, the 'Lord's brother,' was literally Jesus' blood kin or not (and everything suggests he was), it is clear that he knew Jesus...personally. So did most of the other members of the community or 'early Church,' in Jerusalem, including of course, Peter. When they spoke, they did so with first hand authority. Paul had never had such personal acquaintance with the figure he'd begun to regard as his 'Savior.' He had only his quasi-mystical experience in the desert and the sound of a disembodied voice. For him to arrogate authority to himself on this basis is, to say the least, presumptuous. It also leads him to distort Jesus' teachings beyond recognition, to formulate, in fact, his own highly individual and idiosyncratic theology, and then to legitimize it by spuriously ascribing it to Jesus."
"As things transpired, however, the mainstream of the new movement gradually coalesced, during the next three centuries, around Paul and his teachings. Thus, to the undoubted posthumous horror of James and his associates, an entirely new religion was indeed born, a religion that came to have less and less to do with its supposed founder."
Thomas Jefferson

"Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus."
From a letter to W. Short published in The Great Thoughts by George Sildes (Ballantine Books, New York, 1985, p.208).
Albert Schweitzer

"Where possible he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Jesus, in fact even mentioning it. If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Jesus taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the 'Our Father.' Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord."
(The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle, p. 171)
Jeremy Bentham
The renowned English philosopher , in his Not Paul But Jesus, declared:

"It rests with every professor of the religion of Jesus to settle within himself to which of the two religions, that of Jesus or that of Paul, he will adhere."

Ferdinand Christian Baur
The eminent theologian, in his Church History of the First Three Centuries, wrote:

"What kind of authority can there be for an 'apostle' who, unlike the other apostles, had never been prepared for the apostolic office in Jesus' own school but had only later dared to claim the apostolic office on the basis on his own authority? The only question comes to be how the apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus....He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears."

Bishop John S. Spong (Episcopal Bishop of Newark)

"Paul's words are not the Words of God. They are the words of Paul- a vast difference."
(Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, p. 104, Harper San Francisco, 1991)
Carl Jung (Psychologist)

"Paul hardly ever allows the real Jesus of Nazareth to get a word in."
(U.S. News and World Report, April 22, 1991, p. 55)
Hyam Maccoby (Talmudic Scholar)
"Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism."
(The Mythmaker, Barnes & Noble, p. 16)

I think I'll take the proclamations of the Church regarding St. Paul over your handful of sources of questionable orthodoxy.





Kontakion - Tone 2

O Lord, You have taken up to eternal rest
and to the enjoyment of Your blessings
the two divinely-inspired preachers, the leaders of the Apostles,
for You have accepted their labors and deaths as a sweet-smelling sacrifice,
for You alone know what lies in the hearts of men.



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  #30  
Old 25th July 2011, 04:50 AM
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It was to and through the Apostle Paul that the mystery was revealed. A mystery is a sacred spiritual secret hitherto concealed but now revealed. The mystery was the Body of Christ and the Gentiles grafted in. He was the apostle to the gentiles. All Scripture was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Who held the pen is less significant than rightly dividing the word of truth.
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