Bro Sam, you have expounded on certain scriptures in a way that contridicts the rest of the word of God.
The scriptures that you have chosen to portray eternal security are not in context with the rest of the Bible.[/quote]
I disagree. The Bible is internally consistent from beginning to end.
Christ gives us eternal life but He also blots out names from the book if life. Revelation 3:5
You should probably take a little time and read the whole passage. The people who's names are blotted out are those who were not saved.
God indeed is faithfull to complete the work He begun, and yes God cannot fail. It is we that can become unfaithfull and walk away from Him as many have done. 1 Timothy 4:1
Where does 1 Tim 4:1 say those people were saved?
[quote]The fact is that Noah could of jumped out the ark just as we can choose to not abide in Christ. IF we keep the faith and endure until the end, and overcome we shall inherit eternal life, that is exactly what Jesus said, so it's obvious that Jesus did not teach eternal security. [/quoet]
And I have provided you seven verses that show that Jesus does teach eternal security.
"For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence until the end". Hebrews 3:14. The key word is "IF".
I'm afraid you took this out of contex. Had you bothered to read v 12, you would have seen that Paul is seperating the saved from the unsaved, not saying that the saved can lose their salvation.
Nothing can make us follow God but ourselves.
Well, so much for Romans 3:11, then.
Anyone who chooses to believe, love, and follow Jesus is destined to go to heaven.
Wow, that's pretty heretical.
If it was God's full responsibility to conform us into Christ's image, why is that we still fall into sin at times? Does God stop working in our lives or do we cease to obey?
Because we still have what Paul called "bodies of sin".
To teach people that they are eternally secure causes many to continue in a life of sin.
Not if you teach them what it means to be born again.
If you really don't understand what happens when a person is born again and receives a new nature, I can explain it to you.
To teach that if true believers continue or return to a life of sin, they were never really saved, is to say that God only allows a choosen few to sin and go to heaven.
Then your argument is with 1 John 3:6, not with me.
The unsaved are not written in the book of life to blot out. Jesus is speaking to the church not the unsaved in Rev. 3:5
Our bodies of sin don't make us sin, we choose to sin. The Holy Spirit does not make us obey, we must choose to obey.
You assume that the scriptures I have given you seperates the saved from the unsaved. The epistles were written to Christians whom Paul warned not to fall away.
How is it heretical to believe that God does not want any to perish? I'm not saying God says everyone, He saves whosoever will believe, repent, and is filled with His Spirit, if they endure until the end, as our Lord Jesus has said.
If anyone, believer or non-believer chooses to live in sin instead of following Christ will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is the Word of God.
The doctrine of eternal security does not save you, only believing and abiding in Christ does. Bro Sam I know we have differences of oppinion but we can't allow that to cause more division.
One truth we both know is that our salvation comes from Jesus Christ alone. I only attempt to encourage believers to live a holy life out of a love for Jesus. We are to make our calling and election sure by living a holy life.
The forum is about witnessing, let us be a faithful witness by showing the world we love God by obeying His word. If we don't preach the Gospel, the Gospel won't be preached. Be bold, go forth and speak His word. "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few".
The unsaved are not written in the book of life to blot out. Jesus is speaking to the church not the unsaved in Rev. 3:5
Like I said, you should probably take a little time and read the whole passage.
Our bodies of sin don't make us sin, we choose to sin. The Holy Spirit does not make us obey, we must choose to obey.
See Romans 6:6.
You assume that the scriptures I have given you seperates the saved from the unsaved. The epistles were written to Christians whom Paul warned not to fall away.
No, I didn't assume. I read the whole passage and saw that the passage said that.
How is it heretical to believe that God does not want any to perish?
Never said it was.
If anyone, believer or non-believer chooses to live in sin instead of following Christ will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is the Word of God.
And the verse I gave you shows that if they continue to live in sin, they're not a believer, so your point is moot.
The doctrine of eternal security does not save you
Never said it does.
The forum is about witnessing, let us be a faithful witness by showing the world we love God by obeying His word. If we don't preach the Gospel, the Gospel won't be preached. Be bold, go forth and speak His word. "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few".
Bro Sam, I have read the whole chapter of Rev. 3, Jesus is talking to the church. Like I asked earlier, why would Jesus blot out the unsaved from the book of life if the unsaved are not in the book of life?
Romans 6:6 does not say that our bodies of sin make us sin. When you are tempted to sin, do you not have the ability to say no to sin and say yes to God? Does the Holy Spirit make us obey Him or do we have to make the choice to obey Him?
You did say that anyone who chooses to believe, repent, and follow Jesus was heretical, read your previous posts.
I have studied the scriptures you have quoted in context and nowhere does it seperate the unsaved from the saved. You come to that assumption because you have eteranl security thinking. Anyone who chooses to live in sin instead of following Christ will not inherit eteranl life. True or false?
The scriptures you post do not directly state your views, the scriptures I have given you, straight foward state that the reader must overcome endure until the end to be saved. The readers of the epistles were written to churches.
Those who read the epistles of Paul were warned that if they live in sin they would not go to heaven. Jesus addressed the church in Sardis and only the church in Sardis, not the unsaved. I dont know how you can find seperation in that chapter, it's simply not there.
Please show us where your scriptures seperate the unsaved from scriptures I am referencing.
Last edited by Serious Faith; 14th July 2009 at 12:25 AM.
Reason: Added last sentence.
Romans 6:6 does not say that our bodies of sin make us sin.
Originally Posted by Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
You did say that anyone who chooses to believe, repent, and follow Jesus was heretical, read your previous posts.
Nope. Never said anything like that.
This is a very common tactic. You say one thing and then, when your oponent responds to that, you claim you said something else so that it looks like your opponent's response means something else.
Pretty savvy, SeriousFaith.
Aside from the obvious fact that anyone can go back and read my post and see that I never said that, if I really believed that repenting, believing, and following Jesus was heretical, why would I spend so much time telling people to repent, believe, and follow Jesus?
I have studied the scriptures you have quoted in context and nowhere does it seperate the unsaved from the saved. You come to that assumption because you have eteranl security thinking.
No, I assume that because I believe that the Bible is true and so I assume that if the Bible says something, I can trust that it is true.
Anyone who chooses to live in sin instead of following Christ will not inherit eteranl life. True or false?
True. The problem is that the Bible says that if someone chooses to live in sin, they weren't saved in the first place and the Biblical doctrine of eternal security only applies to those who are saved to begin with.
The scriptures you post do not directly state your views
I believe they do and, what's more, based on the couple of PM's I've gotten, I believe that other posters believe they do, too.
the scriptures I have given you, straight foward state that the reader must overcome endure until the end to be saved. The readers of the epistles were written to churches.
So there were no unsaved people in the churches?
Those who read the epistles of Paul were warned that if they live in sin they would not go to heaven.
I agree. And the Bible tells us that if they live in sin, they weren't saved in the first place. The Biblical doctrine of eternal security only applies to those who were saved to begin with.
Jesus addressed the church in Sardis and only the church in Sardis,
And there were no unsaved people in that church.
I dont know how you can find seperation in that chapter, it's simply not there.
It's there if you'll just read it.
Please show us where your scriptures seperate the unsaved from scriptures I am referencing.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
One things is for sure, only the overcomers remain on the books.
__________________ Since the Torah is a finite book expressing the will of an infinite God, many lessons must be derivable from each passage from all the infinite angles.
You do realize your sources are by Catholics for Catholics? So this dosen't help us reformers because you are considred heretics in the eyes of the reformed...just as we are heretics in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
Aside from that, you do realize that Perseverance of the Saints is not Heresy. It is entirely sound Doctrine based soely on Scriptural Referencing. You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ.
Verses supporting this Doctrine are (John 10:27-28) where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; (John 6:47) where salvation is described as everlasting life; (Romans 8:1) where it is said we have passed out of judgment; (1 Cor. 10:13) where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and (Philippians 1:6) where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus' return.
__________________ 2 Corinthians 5:7 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
Things aren't always what they seem. It depends on the person who is viewing them.
Jeremiah 17:13 ".....the Lord, the fountain of living water."
Last edited by PT Calvinist; 10th August 2009 at 05:46 PM.
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