Why the sabbath was made before sin !

Avonia · #41 22nd May 2009, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by Byfaithalone1

Without the Bible, there is plenty of history to confirm that humans behave badly. Your post seems to suggest that, if men were never told they were bad, they would never behave badly.

Religion has been a good modality - but it is not the only one. Any world view, or circumstance, that furthers the illusion of separation - which is really a confusion of identity - furthers bad behavior.

Originally Posted by Byfaithalone1

Who are we to be? Is perfection our calling?

We talk about perfection an end point. This is a source of confusion. If there was an end point of perfection we reached upon arrival in Heaven, it would be intolerable.

Creation is an unfolding.

Byfaithalone1 · #42 22nd May 2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Avonia

Religion has been a good modality - but it is not the only one. Any world view, or circumstance, that furthers the illusion of separation - which is really a confusion of identity - furthers bad behavior.

I can see reasons why this might be true, especially since you've phrased it as "furthers bad behavior" (as opposed to creating the bad behavior).

We talk about perfection an end point. This is a source of confusion. If there was an end point of perfection we reached upon arrival in Heaven, it would be intolerable. Creation is an unfolding.

Would you agree that the creator is more interested in the journey and less interested in the destination? I have always wondered whether this may be true.

BFA

Sophia7 · #43 23rd May 2009, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by Cribstyl

Yea, it seems that those who are not vegetarians feel a lack of perfection to a degree that they make plans to become one for spiritual reasons. There seem to be an understanding among SDA about perfection that will cause Christ's soon return.

That depends on which Adventists you talk to. I've been both vegetarian and non-vegetarian as an Adventist. I was not raised vegetarian. My reasons for not eating meat never included the belief that vegetarianism made me more spiritual or more perfect or would cause Christ to return sooner. Those ideas were foreign to my personal experience since I was not raised in a very traditional Adventist home, and my parents were not all that fond of Ellen White's writings. However, I do know some Adventists who believe as you describe.

Avonia · #44 23rd May 2009, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sophia7

My reasons for not eating meat never included the belief that vegetarianism made me more spiritual or more perfect or would cause Christ to return sooner.

This is what's so crazy about belief. It's a poor substitute for knowledge. We know so much about how food affects the body. And we know from our own experience what makes us feel healthy - and what doesn't. The Bible is a really poor reference when it comes to diet.

I eat what helps me function well in the world - for the most part. For me, that's a vegetarian diet. For others, it may not be. One thing I did discover a few years ago is the power of fasting. I was taught how to fast by a woman with great knowledge on the issue - and how to do it so it's not a shock to the body. What I've discovered is that this produces a clarity that's really wonderful. Again, I don't know if that would be true for everyone - some people may just get hungry. But I do, so clearly, remember how much I disliked those Sabbath fasts as a child.

Originally Posted by Sophia7

However, I do know some Adventists who believe as you describe.

My experience of Adventism has been greatly more diverse than what many others have described. I think this is because of me, because of where I have lived, and because of things I seek to know. And probably a little chance. But it has been valuable to hear the range of experience of other people.

Now to the OP - sort of. Sophia, as you have noticed, I rarely participate in the Sabbath OPs. However, I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

What's your experience been?

Sophia7 · #45 23rd May 2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Avonia

This is what's so crazy about belief. It's a poor substitute for knowledge. We know so much about how food affects the body. And we know from our own experience what makes us feel healthy - and what doesn't. The Bible is a really poor reference when it comes to diet.

I eat what helps me function well in the world - for the most part. For me, that's a vegetarian diet. For others, it may not be. One thing I did discover a few years ago is the power of fasting. I was taught how to fast by a woman with great knowledge on the issue - and how to do it so it's not a shock to the body. What I've discovered is that this produces a clarity that's really wonderful. Again, I don't know if that would be true for everyone - some people may just get hungry. But I do, so clearly, remember how much I disliked those Sabbath fasts as a child.

I agree that what works for one person as far as diet may not work for everyone. Even at different stages of our lives, our dietary needs change; at least mine have.

Originally Posted by Avonia

My experience of Adventism has been greatly more diverse than what many others have described. I think this is because of me, because of where I have lived, and because of things I seek to know. And probably a little chance. But it has been valuable to hear the range of experience of other people.

I also find it valuable to hear the experiences of others.

Originally Posted by Avonia

Now to the OP - sort of. Sophia, as you have noticed, I rarely participate in the Sabbath OPs. However, I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

What's your experience been?

I think that you make a good point about Sabbath practices/rituals/traditions having changed over time. Most Adventists that I know don't actually keep the Sabbath according to the OT law, and I disagree with the false dichotomy that Adventism imposes on the law, with the ten commandments as the line of demarcation between "moral" and "ceremonial" obligations. I have no problem with it if people want to observe a modified or evolved or "blossomed" Sabbath. If they find it spiritually beneficial, I wouldn't want to take that away from them. I just don't believe that seventh-day Sabbath observance is a universal, eternally binding moral requirement.

Back to the OP, I don't believe that there is any evidence that the weekly Sabbath was established as a commandment for humans at creation. I also don't see why there would have been a need for the Sabbath before sin if humans were in perfect communion with God already.

My personal experience during the past few years has been that the ritual of observing the seventh-day Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, along with all of the different expectations that people attach to it, became a huge burden to me. I'm sure that being a pastor's wife and serving in several very conservative Adventist congregations had something to do with my feeling on that, especially after having been raised in a not very traditional Adventist environment.

Still, I held onto my beliefs on the Sabbath for as long as possible, even after hubby decided to resign from the ministry, although I disagreed with the Adventist view of the law, because I viewed the Sabbath as important to my spiritual experience. I liked the positive aspects of it--spending extra time worshiping God and praying and studying, fellowshiping with family and friends, taking a break from a lot of my mundane household chores.

What I have come to understand, though, is that while those things are important, they are not dependent on the seventh-day Sabbath. The meanings and principles and blessings of the Sabbath that Adventists rightly point to can be experienced on the Sabbath or Sunday or any other day. They are not tied to one day of the week. Although I regularly attend church on Sunday now, I do not view it as a holy day or as a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath.

Also, I actually liked going to church on Saturday better than I like going to church on Sunday--probably because that's what I was accustomed to. I suppose I'm a creature of habit. However, the Sabbath issue was pretty much the last straw for me in deciding whether or not to leave the Adventist Church. No church is perfect, and I can't say that I completely agree with any other denomination either, but I didn't feel comfortable continuing to call myself an Adventist while disagreeing with that fundamental Adventist belief. So I go to church on Sunday now just because that's when most other churches meet.

Avonia · #46 24th May 2009, 12:42 AM

Sophia, I appreciate your post.

AzA · #47 24th May 2009, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Avonia

One thing I did discover a few years ago is the power of fasting. I was taught how to fast by a woman with great knowledge on the issue - and how to do it so it's not a shock to the body. What I've discovered is that this produces a clarity that's really wonderful. Again, I don't know if that would be true for everyone - some people may just get hungry. But I do, so clearly, remember how much I disliked those Sabbath fasts as a child.

That's interesting. I don't think I was "taught" by anyone, but my mother did occasionally do fasting with the older ladies in Women's Ministries when I was much younger and sometimes I would be hanging around with her. It wasn't a painful experience but I was mostly unimpressed because of the prayer part, not because of the fasting part.
When I got a bit older, I also discovered the fasting clarity thing you mentioned. It was both about "clarity" and about "clearing." Not physical clearing, lol... but other kinds of clearing.
Then I got into the custom of fasting on mornings I was going to church.
I agree that everyone is different on this. Have a great friend -- Buddhist practitioner -- who has a rough time with fasting. Perhaps a great gift that any spiritual tradition can give a person is teaching them how to love, learn about, and listen to their body. Given all our many hang-ups around food, touch, sex, and clothing, one wonders how much we really know or love the bodies we have. And that in turn may be a downstream domino of our ideas about the physical/material world.

I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

Was this Q only for Sophia or are you taking comments from anybody?