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8th May 2009, 01:26 PM
|  | Just look through the telescope . . .
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Reps: 1,677,725,264,638,603 (power: 1,677,725,264,644) | | Originally Posted by Sophia7  Do you need a law to tell you that murder is wrong?
There is a difference between an innate sense our relationships within the systems we occupy, and conscience. The first is modulated by reason - we learn into a greater understanding of rightness. The second is imparted - we assume it from others.
Conscience may be helpful while the potential of the innate sense is realized. Conscience may be harmful if it occludes learning.
Unfortunately, the SDA "Sabbath Consciousness" is about conscience, not rightness. This is why many formers felt manipulated by the church. |
8th May 2009, 02:40 PM
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Reps: 10,986,165,904,026,884 (power: 10,986,165,904,034) | | Originally Posted by Avonia There is a difference between an innate sense our relationships within the systems we occupy, and conscience. The first is modulated by reason - we learn into a greater understanding of rightness. The second is imparted - we assume it from others.
Conscience may be helpful while the potential of the innate sense is realized. Conscience may be harmful if it occludes learning.
Unfortunately, the SDA "Sabbath Consciousness" is about conscience, not rightness. This is why many formers felt manipulated by the church.
The church?  Which church?
It's not an issue of feeling manipulated. It is simply an issue of considering that which justification and salvation are based on. I just haven't found a basis for concluding that a day is coming in which justification and salvation will be contingent upon sabbath keeping. I wasn't manipulated. I reached my own conclusion on the subject independent of that which SDAism teaches.
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8th May 2009, 02:51 PM
| | Just look through the telescope . . .
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Reps: 1,677,725,264,638,603 (power: 1,677,725,264,644) | | Originally Posted by Byfaithalone1 I just haven't found a basis for concluding that a day is coming in which justification and salvation will be contingent upon sabbath keeping.
Yes you have. You are also your history.
At least that's what I remember you implying about your history as a SDA. Yes? |
8th May 2009, 03:22 PM
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Reps: 282,933,076,143,911,808 (power: 282,933,076,143,929) | | Originally Posted by Avonia There is a difference between an innate sense our relationships within the systems we occupy, and conscience. The first is modulated by reason - we learn into a greater understanding of rightness. The second is imparted - we assume it from others.
Conscience may be helpful while the potential of the innate sense is realized. Conscience may be harmful if it occludes learning.
Unfortunately, the SDA "Sabbath Consciousness" is about conscience, not rightness. This is why many formers felt manipulated by the church.
Yes, I agree that there is a difference between conscience and an innate sense of rightness or morality. I was referring to the latter in my question (or at least that was my intent). I think that the consciences of many Adventists have been so molded by doctrine, especially the Adventist focus on the law and the Sabbath, that they have a hard time seeing that morality transcends law.
I personally have never felt manipulated by the SDA Church or by any particular people within the Adventist community. I know that many other formers do feel that way (and some even go so far as to call it "spiritual abuse"), but I wasn't raised in a traditional/historic Adventist environment, as many of those who have left were, so that probably affects how I view my whole experience in Adventism.
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Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-18)
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8th May 2009, 03:40 PM
| | Just look through the telescope . . .
| | Join Date: 13th December 2007
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Reps: 1,677,725,264,638,603 (power: 1,677,725,264,644) | | Originally Posted by Sophia7 I think that the consciences of many Adventists have been so molded by doctrine, especially the Adventist focus on the law and the Sabbath, that they have a hard time seeing that morality transcends law.
That's right. And one of the best measures for this is whether or not a person experiences guilt. During one of my first weeks at SDA summer camp, we took a trip into town for an event. I had my first Coca-Cola. An interesting juxtaposition of guilt and euphoria. Even at that age, I had a suspicion that guilt was not an appropriate emotion. |
8th May 2009, 04:06 PM
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Reps: 282,933,076,143,911,808 (power: 282,933,076,143,929) | | Originally Posted by Avonia That's right. And one of the best measures for this is whether or not a person experiences guilt. During one of my first weeks at SDA summer camp, we took a trip into town for an event. I had my first Coca-Cola. An interesting juxtaposition of guilt and euphoria. Even at that age, I had a suspicion that guilt was not an appropriate emotion.
I know what you mean. I've experienced those feelings, too--not over Coke (which wasn't forbidden in my family while I was growing up) but over other things. I suppose we all have hangups like that--little things that most people wouldn't even think about but that evoke such emotions in us. It's not limited to Adventism, but Adventism does seem to instill a lot more of those hangups through its teachings than many other Christian churches.
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Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. (2 Corinthians 4:16-18)
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8th May 2009, 04:11 PM
| | Just look through the telescope . . .
| | Join Date: 13th December 2007
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Reps: 1,677,725,264,638,603 (power: 1,677,725,264,644) | | Originally Posted by Sophia7 but Adventism does seem to instill a lot more of those hangups through its teachings than many other Christian churches.
For some of us, there was more emphasis on why we were different than other Christians than that we were Christians. Sabbath, sanctuary, diet, sleep at death - and on. |
22nd May 2009, 06:26 AM
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Reps: 1,142,816,201,199,099,136 (power: 1,142,816,201,199,110) | | | Yea, it seems that those who are not vegetarians feel a lack of perfection to a degree that they make plans to become one for spiritual reasons. There seem to be an understanding among SDA about perfection that will cause Christ's soon return.
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Let the Scriptures Determine Your Theology, Do Not Read Your Theology into Scripture. |
22nd May 2009, 11:01 AM
| | Just look through the telescope . . .
| | Join Date: 13th December 2007
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Reps: 1,677,725,264,638,603 (power: 1,677,725,264,644) | | Originally Posted by Cribstyl Yea, it seems that those who are not vegetarians feel a lack of perfection to a degree that they make plans to become one for spiritual reasons. There seem to be an understanding among SDA about perfection that will cause Christ's soon return.
While this may be true of some Adventists, the larger issue is the Christian teaching of unworthiness. We tell people they were born bad and are then surprised when they behave badly. |
22nd May 2009, 12:26 PM
| | The gospel is Jesus Christ!
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Reps: 10,986,165,904,026,884 (power: 10,986,165,904,034) | | Originally Posted by Avonia While this may be true of some Adventists, the larger issue is the Christian teaching of unworthiness. We tell people they were born bad and are then surprised when they behave badly.
If there is communication that human rightousness is as filthy rags, the source of this communication is the Bible. We should not be surprised that humans behave badly. Without the Bible, there is plenty of history to confirm that humans behave badly. Your post seems to suggest that, if men were never told they were bad, they would never behave badly. If that is your suggestion, that is quite a claim.
Who are we to be? Is perfection our calling?
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