So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..
Well, this is a problem. You see, no person, no human being, can truly convert you; that is solely God's job. We can provide you with reasons to believe and be converted, but whether or not you will accept these reasons is up to God (and you - sort of).
Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?
I guess what you're really asking is why is Christianity preferable and/or better than any other religion. Am I right? Assuming that I am, I would simply point to what makes Christianity distinct from all other religions. All religions have things like prayer, sacred rituals, priests, and a moral code in common. In respect to these things it would be hard to prove that Christianity was superior to any other religion. Where Christianity differs from all other religions, however, is where one can see why it is preferable to any other religion. Here are a few points where CHristianity is distinct from other religions:
1. Not works based.
Christianity does not rely upon one's personal merit to secure a place in Heaven or a relationship with God.
2. Unlike Buddha or Mohammed, Jesus claimed to be God and proved through miracles, his fulfillment of prophecy, and his resurrection from the dead that he was truly divine.
3. Christianity is not Self-centered, it is not about Self improvement, but about putting Self to death that the character of God may grow in its place.
An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
How so?
I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.
How do you know this?
If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
If God prevented us from doing evil things we would be nothing more than puppets. If God allowed us to do evil things but negated the destructive consequences of our evil actions, He would be enabling us to do evil, which would make Him evil, too. Neither of these two possibilities is preferable to what we presently have.
You and I suffer because this is always the result of Sin. Sin is so horrible, in part, because it reaches out beyond the sinner to harm others.
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
No one - except Jesus Christ - has ever lived a perfect life. Every human being sins. Doing good deeds, then, is not enough to enable us to stand before a perfectly holy God uncondemned. We need the perfect, sinless life of Christ covering us in order to gain acceptance with a perfect, sinless God.
Salvation has nothing to do with our deserving it. God saves us because He is merciful and kind and loving. No one can point to another and say, "I deserve Heaven more than him!" As far as God is concerned, we all deserve Hell; it is a testament to the great graciousness of God that we do not all get what we deserve.
The Bible says that every person has some idea that there is a God. All of Creation reveals Him. What's more, every person has a basic sense of right and wrong, a conscience, that justifies or condemns that person. Each of us has an innate "moral law" given to us by the "Moral Law Giver." It is because these things are so that no one will be able to stand before God and say, "I had no idea you existed!"
I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
Much of what Paul the apostle wrote in the New Testament is an explanation of why the OT laws are no longer in force. I would suggest reading, in particular, his letters to the Hebrews, to the Galatians, and to the Romans.
Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
So, what makes you a better judge of how things ought to be done, than God Himself? Are you omniscient? Are you omnipotent? Do you exist outside of time? Did you make the Universe?
My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.
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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.
I will share with you a true story that keeps me a Christian. Then I will answer your other questions.
One morning I got up an walked into the hall an I heard a voice say "How would you like to be stabbed in the valley?" This scared me a little as the "valley" was the rough end of town. I was planning to go there to ask people out to church, and I wondered if God was displeased with me because of the strange question. I decided to go any way. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him out to church. He said "No I am an atheist". I just said fine but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his middle section. He said to me "This is from a knife attack that occurred to me in the valley some time ago, I spent months recovering in hospital, how could God really love me?". I was able to tell him how God had spoken to me in the morning letting me know God understood why he did not believe. He came out to church some weeks latter and became a Christian.
So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..
Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?
Because it comes with evidence, both historical and current day. See www.johnmellor.org to see healings happening today.
An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
The bible does not say that God knows the future to the finest detail, he has the power to control it, but he has given the earth to man.
I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.
The bible says God does not tempt any one to sin but each one is lead astray by their own desire.
Jas 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
Read the true story at the top. God understands people frustrations at unfair things that happen. He also grants believers wisdom to avoid places and situations that are potentially dangerous. I.e. a person at a drunken night spot is more likely to be bashed than some one watching a movie.
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
I think you are asking here how can a person live a good life and goto hell because they were not made aware of Jesus. See this website it is a testimony of a man who was dead but came back to life. God himself witnessed Jesus to the man, no one does not get a chance. Sadly not every one is willing to listen. Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish
I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
The penalties are harsh to prevent people from performing crimes against Gods law. There is a story of a woman who was caught in adultery in the New Testiment, of which the penalty was death by stoning. The religious leaders came to Jesus and put the woman in front of him and said "the law commands we kill this woman what do you say"? Jesus said to the crowd, he who is with out sin should cast the first stone. The crowd one by one left until there was only Jesus and the woman. He said "Woman where are your accusers?". Jesus just said to her go and sin no more. God's heart is to maintain order by the harsh law, but he rarely carries it out in practice.
[quote]Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.[quote]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
The bible says God is just - meaning we have a right to forgiveness and he is willing to forgive. Those who refuse to recieve his forgiveness, because they want to keep sinning and are not willing to receive purification deserve to go to hell and will spend eternity there regretting every moment of their betrayal. But you must remember confession to a faithful God today while we have breath brings forgiveness. Once we die it is too late to confess. God will not strive forever with a man or woman who consistently refuses him.
What DO you believe? Did man evolve from a gas and this is where we are? Is there no reason to chose between good and evil, or is there no choice at all? Is this life the end?
I believe in Christianity because of the resurrection. JESUS...
That's why not Islam, or Buddha etc. Either Jesus is who He said He was or He was a Liar or a poor misguided mental case.
I believe He rose from the dead like He said He would and then the rest is not so hard. What do you think?
__________________ If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.
My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.
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But I don't see how anyone could ever convince me. Maybe proof, or even a compelling philosophy would be enough.
So, I would like you guys to try to convert me to Christianity. Here's a few of my problems with it..
Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism? Why not Islam?
Are you looking into those as potential religions? You currently are marked as atheist so if you are honestly seeking faith, let's back off a step and leave it as is there a God/afterlife/spiritual world. No sense in arguing about what the right model of car is before you've decided to stop biking everywhere. If you are convinced of a higher power, then you can start looking at what religion you feel has it most right.
Originally Posted by Oecleus
An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
Not at all. We can be fully aware of the outcome of things we do not control. likewise, even assuming an omniscient God we don't get away from free will. There are some potential issues with the tri-omni God concept and the existance of evil, but that's a separate issue which I'll address after you bring it up below.
Originally Posted by Oecleus
I don't see your point with there being evil in the world because of Gods gift of freewill. When God made us he put in every fault into us, there is no random effect he can give us that will make us create faults on our own.
The tri omni God is something I myself have issues with, especially when calvinists argue also for preselection. If need be, reject one of the omnis. Heck, reject all the omnis and leave it as a very knowledgeable, very powerful, kind God.
Originally Posted by Oecleus
If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
If God/an afterlife exists, then all debts can be settled at the end. This may require a rejectiono of ctain views of the afterlife to mesh with the concept of a just God though.
Originally Posted by Oecleus
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
That is one specific view of the afterlife. Even within the judeo christian religions there are a multitude of views of the afterlife. Sme Christian groups take a rather agnostic view of the afterlife and just leave it as "I'll find out when I get there". That's my view. Others reject the idea of an afterlife and some believe in a heaven but no hell. Others believe hell exists as a kid of purgatory where sins are paid for beore enterance to heaven.
Originally Posted by Oecleus
I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
These are not contemporary laws within Christianity. Not all christian denominations are sola scriptura anyway.
Originally Posted by Oecleus
Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
Again, I'd say leave that until you've settled the "is there a god/spiritual world"
Originally Posted by Oecleus
Hopefully, I posted in the right spot, and hopefully I don't get banned for "trolling"
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Looks like the right spot.
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My thread got deleted before, and I don't know why. I'm not debating, because if these problems got adequitly answered, I would convert. I would love to convert back, I was before a much happier individual.
You appear to be having an existential crisis. It is my guess that it has been caused by the sudden realization that, from your perspective, everything you believed to be true is no longer true. That which gave you meaning no longer does, as it does not exist. You will need to seek your meaning elsewhere. The goodness that humanity is capable of producing, despite its evil tendencies, is a good place to start.
The alternative (one of them, anyway) is to conclude nihilism, which I find to be a dangerous stance if improperly applied. It is the idea that life is inherently meaningless. We live. We die. The end. But even in the realm of nihilism, you can create meaning for yourself. You're here, might as well enjoy it.
An omniscient being in a universe is incapable with freewill. If a being is omniscient then it already knows what I did before I did it and that would mean I had no choice in it at all.
That depends on how you define omniscience as well as how you view the flow of time and how the world is actualized. The best answer I've been able to think of is that God is able to view all possibilities that will happen on an infinite scale. Whether you want to accept the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics (where there are many parallel realities to cover different choices) or not is another topic, albeit related.
If I choose good actions i still am highly likely to get bad things to happen to me, what is the sense in that? Why wouldn't you reward the good people and make sure the sinners don't hurt the others.
The best answer to the problem of evil that I know of is the Irenaen theodicy: God intends the world as a place of "soul-making" and suffering is a necessary component of it. Objections include such things like "well why not just remove suffering and create us all to be complete, moral creatures?" Answer: Would violate free will. If free will is to be part of the human experience, creating us with already-formed perfect morals etc etc would not make us very free.
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
And who says, aside from the extreme fundamentalist evangelical Christians, that this is how it really goes? Catholicism defines a doctrine called invincible ignorance which covers situations such as people who have never heard of Jesus being able to go to heaven should they lead good lives. As for the genocidal maniac in your second example, is someone who does things like that really living the true Christian message? God's forgiveness may be infinite, but salvation is not a "flip on the switch" process, it's a life-long kind of thing. Plus, only God would know if such a conversion (like on a deathbed) was even genuine.
Keep in mind these answers come from a Catholic perspective, and are not representative of all Christian views on the subject(s).
I have a problem with the laws put forth by the Lord. If I work on a Sabbath I should be stoned? If I am disobedient to my parents I shall be tied to a tree and stoned?
Sup old testament.
Lastly(Not of my objections but of what I am willing to type), I don't understand the significance of Jesus, God created himself in human form, sacrificed himself in human form, then resurrected himself for what? To take away the bad sins and allow people access to heaven? If he really wanted to, and if he was omnipotent, he would just forgive the sins and be a more reasonable God.
Something to do with the law being bound in blood or something to that effect.
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If you were to convert back to Christianity, the liberal strain of it would probably be best. It has a wide variety of theological bases that allow for many different types of belief.
By the way, if you're looking for evidence for God, you'll never find it. In the end, it will always come down to a choice of faith.
The answers you receive to these questions will always have a hole or two (or maybe more depending on how robust it is...), no matter how small. But in the realm of critical religious discussion, nothing is ever really able to be answered to 100% satisfaction whether it be a question supporting theism or atheism. Those holes in the answers are where faith comes into play. You either have it or lack it.
In my opinion, the best stance for you to take would probably be something of a non-nihilistic existentialist philosophy: humanity creates its meaning through existing.
Some very studious answers, but you know, no-one got converted by cold reason and studious arguments... Jesus appeals to your heart.
Jesus said "seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door shall be opened unto you."
You are here, and profess that you were happier before when you were a Christian! I don't know why you need anything more at this point....!
But anyway, remember Christ's promises to us. He meant them. Open your heart to Him - take the plunge and see how He answers you. If you are earnest He most certainly will. He loves a seeker. Jesus demands foremost our trust, and that we obey him, but the trust has to come first. Trust...
Why do we have freewill if God knows what we'll do?
My rich friend's father gives her the freewill to use her bank account money however she sees fit. He HOPES that she will use it wisely, but in the end, he sadly knows she will spend it on clothes and shoes. He knows her, lived with her, raised her and nurtured her, and he has given her the freewill to use the money as she sees fit, but knowing his daughter, knowing her heart, he knows what the end result will be. To have the free will to do something does not necessarily mean it must CONFLICT with MY KNOWLEDGE as to what you will DO with that free will.
To give a reasonable argument on why God exists is difficult when matched alongside scientific ones with not full proof, but at least more physical proof.
Ppl don't like to hear that knowing God's existence is a FEELING and about having FAITH because of evidences u urself see. What is coincidence to some, like you for the first time getting a flat tire on the very night that if you had gone home any earlier you would have met up with those gun-toting thugs that robbed your house, is God-intervention to others. Some want to call u seeing an angel as a mental disorder. Some want to say that the demon u saw was just a figment of your imagination. It's not an easy thing to have faith all the time.
We don't always need concrete, scientific evidence to know that something is wrong or that something exists. POINT IN CASE. My father was having intestinal discomfort. They did every test known to man and gave him every x-ray, and said that ALL IS WELL. YOU ARE IMAGINING THINGS. But he KNEW they were wrong. One day, he can't keep ANYTHING down. Rushed to the hospital. There's a SEVERE blockage all the way up to his chest practically, then they realize, heck, there's a growth/tumour in the intestines that has obstructed the food. Thankfully , his response to the blockage made them find out what they couldn't with their machines. He's fine now, praise the Lord. But I guess if ppl want to say there are flaws in God and Christianity, then obviously and inarguably the same can be said for medicine and science.
Heaven and hell also doesn't make sense to me. I can live a perfect life giving to charity, helping every person I can, and never hear of "God's word" and I would end up in hell. But, I could kill millions and millions of people and as long as I believe in Jesus and God I automatically go to heaven.
Yes, this idea is one of things I find both absurd and illogical about Christianity. How can a supposedly good and just being find it just and good to send people to be tortured for an eternity in hell? How can a God expect his followers to be happy in heaven knowing that people they loved but didn't believe in God roast in hell for an eternity? It is harsh, unreasonable and illogical.
No one deserves to be punished for an eternity but shouldn't good-hearted non-believers be freed from hell rather than murderous christians?
I personally believe in heaven but I believe that all creatures will get there in the end after being freed from samsara. All souls will get purified, maybe spend some time in naraka but in the end all souls will reach nirvana.
Last edited by Dharma Wheel; 23rd May 2009 at 08:10 AM.
Yes, this idea is one of things I find both absurd and illogical about Christianity. How can a supposedly goood and just being find it just and good to send people to be tortured for an eternity in hell? How can a God expect his followers to be happy in heaven knowing that people they loved but didn't believe in God roast in hell for an eternity? It is harsh, unreasonable and illogical.
No one deserves to be punished for an eternity but shouldn't good-hearted non-believers be freed from hell rather than murderous christians?
I personally believe in heaven but I believe that all creatures will get there in the end after being freed from samsara. All souls will get purified, maybe spend some time in naraka but in the end all souls will reach nirvana.
but according to scripture, hell isn't a punishment of sin, but rather the consequence of sin, which means your whole objections is based on tradition, not what the "religion" teaches.
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It's not an easy thing to have faith all the time. 
, his response to the blockage made them find out what they couldn't with their machines. He's fine now, praise the Lord. But I guess if ppl want to say there are flaws in God and Christianity, then obviously and inarguably the same can be said for medicine and science. 
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