Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
For the TE, here's how it plays out. If I am able to take the plain meaning of Scripture in something as simple as the creation story and twist it to say something entirely different then the door has been thrown open to take other truths of God's Word and manipulate them as well, all in an effort to cover our personal sins. Remember, sin is something many of us wish to sweep away and pretend didn't exist because if held accountable we would then be held responsible for changing our behavior and we all know how popular change is, especially any change that requires an effort that could be painful. Why change when you can simply justify your sin by twisting Scripture to accommodate it? When we can appease our guilty conscience by twisting Scripture to state that which is sin to be good, well then we can do just about anything.
So yeah, it makes perfect sense why many Christians believe in evolution.
Except that for most TEs, it doesn't play out like this at all. After all, most TEs still firmly believe in the fall, in the incarnation, the atoning sacrifice of Christ, in the resurrection, in forgiveness of sins through Christ, in the return of Christ, in the judgment to come and the life of the world to come.
Very strange if the purpose of accepting evolution is to avoid responsibility for our sins and appease a guilty conscience.
It sounds like you have invented a wholly fictitious TE.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
You really make it more complicated than it is. Simply put, I believe TEs and non-believers (I will limit my comments to TEs) support evolution because it gives them the ability to believe whatever it is they wish instead of being held accountable to God and His Word.
For the TE, here's how it plays out. If I am able to take the plain meaning of Scripture in something as simple as the creation story and twist it to say something entirely different then the door has been thrown open to take other truths of God's Word and manipulate them as well, all in an effort to cover our personal sins. Remember, sin is something many of us wish to sweep away and pretend didn't exist because if held accountable we would then be held responsible for changing our behavior and we all know how popular change is, especially any change that requires an effort that could be painful. Why change when you can simply justify your sin by twisting Scripture to accommodate it? When we can appease our guilty conscience by twisting Scripture to state that which is sin to be good, well then we can do just about anything.
So yeah, it makes perfect sense why many Christians believe in evolution.
Wow!
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Except that for most TEs, it doesn't play out like this at all. After all, most TEs still firmly believe in the fall, in the incarnation, the atoning sacrifice of Christ, in the resurrection, in forgiveness of sins through Christ, in the return of Christ, in the judgment to come and the life of the world to come.
Very strange if the purpose of accepting evolution is to avoid responsibility for our sins and appease a guilty conscience.
It sounds like you have invented a wholly fictitious TE.
I can't speak for you or anyone specifically, all I can do is give you my observations. I know that almost 100% of the time when I speak to someone who claims to be a Christian and they believe in things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. they are evolutionists. You may see this as fictitious but it's in my face all the time. So yes, there are TEs who believe in the fall, in the incarnation, etc. but I would submit they cherry pick the doctrines they support and believe. It's my belief they do this so they won't have to confront their own sins. BTW, this clearly explains why TEs are all over the theological map of doctrinal beliefs.
__________________ David Cooper: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense;therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, literal meaning, unless the facts of the context indicate clearly otherwise."
I can't speak for you or anyone specifically, all I can do is give you my observations. I know that almost 100% of the time when I speak to someone who claims to be a Christian and they believe in things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. they are evolutionists. You may see this as fictitious but it's in my face all the time. So yes, there are TEs who believe in the fall, in the incarnation, etc. but I would submit they cherry pick the doctrines they support and believe. It's my belief they do this so they won't have to confront their own sins. BTW, this clearly explains why TEs are all over the theological map of doctrinal beliefs.
I think you are confusing two different categories. Sin is a doctrinal issue. That Christ came to save sinners is a doctrinal issue.
But what is and is not a sin is not a doctrinal issue. When Peter and Paul wrote to the first Christians they considered it sinful for a slave to disobey or desert their master or to be slack in their work. Today we consider it sinful to own slaves.
The bible says virtually nothing about abortion so it is difficult to determine whether it was considered sinful or not or whether it should still be considered sinful. Christians can legitimately differ on whether there are any appropriate circumstances in which abortion is a morally responsible decision and still be agreed on the biblical doctrines relative to sin and redemption.
They can also legitimately disagree on the extent to which access to abortion should be dealt with legally in a religiously plural society and still be agreed on the biblical doctrines relative to sin and redemption.
Ditto on gay marriage.
Christians who disagree with you on these specifics are not avoiding responsibility for sin or seeking to excuse themselves. Just like you they recognize and confess their own sins and rely wholly on Christ for forgiveness. They only disagree on which actions are to be considered sinful.
They might be as frustrated with you (or people who adopt much the same theological stance as you) for not considering the sinfulness of engaging in war--especially on false pretexts, for not respecting the human rights of migrants--including illegals, for justifying the use of torture, for neglecting the challenge of climate change, or the fundamental sinfulness of capitalism. (You may not personally subscribe to all of these but I expect you know people who do--yet call themselves Christian).
They could charge such people--just as you do--with evading responsibility and seeking to excuse themselves. And the response would be the same --that it is not the doctrine that is in dispute, but whether or not these actions, or inactions, are actually sinful.
Finally, while I am not surprised that a Christian who accepts the validity of gay marriage or the necessity of choice around abortion is also likely to accept evolution, you need to note 1. that this is not always the case and 2. that the reverse is not the case--by a long shot. On this board, I expect that many TEs share your position on both abortion and gay marriage. Most Catholic TEs, for example, also oppose both abortion and gay marriage.
So your thin edge of the wedge scenario is still mostly unsubstantiated conjecture and speculation.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
But what is and is not a sin is not a doctrinal issue. When Peter and Paul wrote to the first Christians they considered it sinful for a slave to disobey or desert their master or to be slack in their work. Today we consider it sinful to own slaves.
This is an extremely loaded subject that could easily derail this thread so I'll say one quick thing and leave it alone. What was considered slavery back in biblical times was very different than what we consider slavery today.
The bible says virtually nothing about abortion so it is difficult to determine whether it was considered sinful or not or whether it should still be considered sinful. Christians can legitimately differ on whether there are any appropriate circumstances in which abortion is a morally responsible decision and still be agreed on the biblical doctrines relative to sin and redemption.
It's statements such as these that almost immediately identify you as an evolutionist. Obviously there are non evolutionists who are Christians who support abortion but their percentage is small compared to those who don't.
They can also legitimately disagree on the extent to which access to abortion should be dealt with legally in a religiously plural society and still be agreed on the biblical doctrines relative to sin and redemption.
Ditto on gay marriage.
Here again we differ completely.
Christians who disagree with you on these specifics are not avoiding responsibility for sin or seeking to excuse themselves. Just like you they recognize and confess their own sins and rely wholly on Christ for forgiveness. They only disagree on which actions are to be considered sinful.
Once again I'm in total disagreement.
They might be as frustrated with you (or people who adopt much the same theological stance as you) for not considering the sinfulness of engaging in war--especially on false pretexts, for not respecting the human rights of migrants--including illegals, for justifying the use of torture, for neglecting the challenge of climate change, or the fundamental sinfulness of capitalism. (You may not personally subscribe to all of these but I expect you know people who do--yet call themselves Christian).
Whether they are or are not frustrated with me considering war, human rights, etc. these subjects have nothing to do with the point I raised.
They could charge such people--just as you do--with evading responsibility and seeking to excuse themselves. And the response would be the same --that it is not the doctrine that is in dispute, but whether or not these actions, or inactions, are actually sinful.
Of course if someone were to make a strong biblical case for their argument then they in fact have a strong charge. However, I rarely if ever hear evolutionists make any such charges based on sound biblical exegesis. It certainly would be welcome if they did.
Finally, while I am not surprised that a Christian who accepts the validity of gay marriage or the necessity of choice around abortion is also likely to accept evolution, you need to note 1. that this is not always the case and 2. that the reverse is not the case--by a long shot. On this board, I expect that many TEs share your position on both abortion and gay marriage. Most Catholic TEs, for example, also oppose both abortion and gay marriage.
Point one is noted and I agree, while point two may have some validity, especially considering the TE who is a Catholic, yet even then many, many Catholics stray from their own doctrines.
So your thin edge of the wedge scenario is still mostly unsubstantiated conjecture and speculation.
I readily admit that my views are based on conjecture and speculation, that's what observations typically are. Too bad evolutionists don't take the same stand.
__________________ David Cooper: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense;therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, literal meaning, unless the facts of the context indicate clearly otherwise."
This is an extremely loaded subject that could easily derail this thread so I'll say one quick thing and leave it alone. What was considered slavery back in biblical times was very different than what we consider slavery today.
There are many different viewpoints today on what constitutes slavery too. Is child labour slavery? Is hiring illegal immigrants and overworking/ underpaying them because they don't dare protest slavery? Is the legal denial of union rights in export processing zones slavery?
Are you trying to excuse ancient slavery? And modern slavery such as the examples above along with it?
Is it only two debatable sins that count with you?
Whether they are or are not frustrated with me considering war, human rights, etc. these subjects have nothing to do with the point I raised.
It has everything to do with the point you raised. You said TE was a slippery slope toward twisting scripture to excuse one's own sin. But on the basis of their support for war, denial of human rights, torture, capitalism, etc. --when combined with a belief in creationism--I could just as easily say that creationism is a slippery slope toward twisting scripture to excuse one's own sin.
The charge cuts both ways.
Of course if someone were to make a strong biblical case for their argument then they in fact have a strong charge. However, I rarely if ever hear evolutionists make any such charges based on sound biblical exegesis. It certainly would be welcome if they did.
Again the charge cuts both ways. I have rarely if ever heard anyone make a case against abortion on sound biblical exegesis either.
Basically most people affirm their politics first and then interpret scripture to agree with it---and that applies just as much to the right as to the left.
I readily admit that my views are based on conjecture and speculation, that's what observations typically are. Too bad evolutionists don't take the same stand.
Actually they do. That is why they rely on tested and testable evidence.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
There are many different viewpoints today on what constitutes slavery too. Is child labour slavery? Is hiring illegal immigrants and overworking/ underpaying them because they don't dare protest slavery? Is the legal denial of union rights in export processing zones slavery?
Are you trying to excuse ancient slavery? And modern slavery such as the examples above along with it?
Is it only two debatable sins that count with you?
The question was posed as to why people believe in evolution. My response was specifically to that question so I'm choosing not to derail this thread by now making it a discussion about what is or isn't slavery. However, I would gladly entertain such a discussion in an appropriate thread elsewhere.
It has everything to do with the point you raised. You said TE was a slippery slope toward twisting scripture to excuse one's own sin. But on the basis of their support for war, denial of human rights, torture, capitalism, etc. --when combined with a belief in creationism--I could just as easily say that creationism is a slippery slope toward twisting scripture to excuse one's own sin.
That's fine, you're more than welcome to do just that. It should be quite interesting.
Again the charge cuts both ways. I have rarely if ever heard anyone make a case against abortion on sound biblical exegesis either.
Here are just a few Scriptures that affirm life and the value God places on it.
Deuteronomy 30:19This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life...
Job 10:8-12Your hands fashioned and made me, and now you have destroyed me altogether. Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust? Did you not pour me out like milk and curdle me like cheese? You clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. You have granted me life and steadfast love, and your care has preserved my spirit.
Job 31:15Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers?
Psalm 95:6Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker.
Psalm 100:3Know that the Lord is God. It is He who made us, and we are his; we are His people, the sheep of His pasture.
Psalm 119:73Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands.
Psalm 139:13-16For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.
Isaiah 44:2This is what the Lord says — He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you...
Isaiah 44:24This is what the Lord says — your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: "I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself..."
Jeremiah 1:5Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.
Many evolutionists will read those Scriptures and twist them to say whatever it is they would like them to say but one thing is perfectly clear. God values life! This cannot be denied no matter how much one chooses to distort His Word.
Please provide an exegetical response that supports the sin of abortion.
Basically most people affirm their politics first and then interpret scripture to agree with it---and that applies just as much to the right as to the left.
I don't disagree.
__________________ David Cooper: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense;therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, literal meaning, unless the facts of the context indicate clearly otherwise."
The question was posed as to why people believe in evolution. My response was specifically to that question so I'm choosing not to derail this thread by now making it a discussion about what is or isn't slavery. However, I would gladly entertain such a discussion in an appropriate thread elsewhere.
I am not really interested. The point is that identifying specific actions or inactions as sin is not really a doctrinal issue; the doctrinal issue is how sin is dealt with, and on this matter Christian TEs affirm orthodox Christian doctrine in the atoning sacrifice of Christ and the power of his resurrection.
That's fine, you're more than welcome to do just that. It should be quite interesting.
And you would defend your actions, or inactions, as justified, in the same way as those who support choice and gay marriage do. Yet it takes more twisting of scripture to defend injustice than to defend a choice to end a pregnancy.
Here are just a few Scriptures that affirm life and the value God places on it.
But that is not the issue. The issue is how do we affirm and value specific lives in specific situations. Right beside this valuation of life, scripture also provides the death penalty for many situations (including homosexual intercourse) where we no longer do so. Yet it does not include abortion among any list of sins nor prescribe the death penalty for it.
And most condemnations of sin in Israel--by far--are condemnations of the pursuit of wealth at the expense of the vulnerable. A just distribution of a society's economic resources is an important aspect of affirming and valuing life. How can one say that one has respect for life while allowing thousands of citizens to go homeless and hungry?
Many evolutionists will read those Scriptures and twist them to say whatever it is they would like them to say but one thing is perfectly clear. God values life! This cannot be denied no matter how much one chooses to distort His Word.
Not at all. We can affirm all these scriptures without qualification.
Please provide an exegetical response that supports the sin of abortion.
Scripture nowhere supports sin; but neither does it define abortion as sin. That is your exegetical dilemma. You have to twist scripture to make it denounce abortion.
I don't disagree.
Yet you do not define your right-wing political agenda as twisting scripture. Only the political agenda of those you disagree with.
__________________ The high, the low, all of creation God gives to humankind to use. If this privilege is misused, God's Justice permits creation to punish humanity~~ Hildegard of Bingen cited in, Earth Prayers from around the World
I can't speak for you or anyone specifically, all I can do is give you my observations. I know that almost 100% of the time when I speak to someone who claims to be a Christian and they believe in things like abortion, gay marriage, etc. they are evolutionists. You may see this as fictitious but it's in my face all the time. So yes, there are TEs who believe in the fall, in the incarnation, etc. but I would submit they cherry pick the doctrines they support and believe. It's my belief they do this so they won't have to confront their own sins. BTW, this clearly explains why TEs are all over the theological map of doctrinal beliefs.
As are creationists; there are creationists who are Catholic and Lutheran, evangelical, and even cults or other religions. So why does it surprise you that TEs are doctrinally all over the map?
You have to determine which set is larger. Certainly, many of those who are proponents of abortion and gay marriage also accept evolution. It does NOT logically follow that the converse is true. I, for example, am extremely conservative, and yet I accept TE.
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"I have no pleasure in any man who despises music. It is no invention of ours: it is a gift of God. I place it next to theology. Satan hates music: he knows how it drives the evil spirit out of us." -Martin Luther
And you would defend your actions, or inactions, as justified, in the same way as those who support choice and gay marriage do. Yet it takes more twisting of scripture to defend injustice than to defend a choice to end a pregnancy.
Hardly, my method of supporting or defending a view is based, as much as possible, on God's Word. If Scripture supports a position then it becomes my position and I do that without the need twist or distort it by justifying personal sins I wish to minimize. Those who support abortion and same sex marriage have no scriptural support for their positions.
But that is not the issue. The issue is how do we affirm and value specific lives in specific situations.
For those who don't value life above death or inconvenience yes the issue is how to apply their needs to their personal situation. No where that I know does Scripture ever treat life as situational.
Right beside this valuation of life, scripture also provides the death penalty for many situations (including homosexual intercourse) where we no longer do so. Yet it does not include abortion among any list of sins nor prescribe the death penalty for it.
If you wish to believe that abortion isn't a sin there is nothing I or anyone else can say to cause you to think otherwise. It would be a waste of my time. Again, my point was to demonstrate how evolution allows such a discussion to be considered rational and even productive.
And most condemnations of sin in Israel--by far--are condemnations of the pursuit of wealth at the expense of the vulnerable. A just distribution of a society's economic resources is an important aspect of affirming and valuing life. How can one say that one has respect for life while allowing thousands of citizens to go homeless and hungry?
This is the typical diversionary tactic of those who wish to divert attention from a simple and straight-forward subject and cloud it with another less simple topic.
Not at all. We can affirm all these scriptures without qualification.
That sounds great, you affirm all those scriptures. It's a little like saying I have faith in Jesus but when asked to trust Him I don't. The bottom line isn't whether you or other abortion believing folks affirm scripture, the question is do your actions affirm scripture?
Scripture nowhere supports sin; but neither does it define abortion as sin. That is your exegetical dilemma. You have to twist scripture to make it denounce abortion.
I see no such dilemma. The Scriptures I cited clearly support life not death. Abortion is, plain and simple, death or more specifically murder. For you or anyone else to claim otherwise is, at best, disingenuous.
Yet you do not define your right-wing political agenda as twisting scripture. Only the political agenda of those you disagree with.
This has nothing to do with right or left wing agendas and has everything to do with the Word of God.
__________________ David Cooper: "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense;therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, literal meaning, unless the facts of the context indicate clearly otherwise."
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