Home | Be a Christian | Devotionals | Join Us! | Forums | Rules | F.A.Q.


Go Back   Christian Forums > Congregation > Christian Communities > One Bread, One Body - Catholic
Register BlogsPrayersJobsArcade Calendar Mark Forums Read

One Bread, One Body - Catholic A forum open to Christians to discuss various Catholic beliefs and issues.

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12th August 2004, 02:31 PM
Regular Member

Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 27th June 2004
Posts: 149
Blessings: 151,238
Reps: 27 (power: 0)
entropy_rising is on a distinguished road
What does the Bible say about being Judgemental?

Howdy.

I've set my self on reading the Bible, and when it comes to being judgemental, I've been getting some mixed messages.

"Judgemental," as a word chock full of negative connotations, is generally answered with the parable of Jesus and the adulteress in John. Jesus' words, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her" echo heavily in any discussion involving judgement. Plainly, the parable tells us to leave judgement to God.

However, Paul, in Corinthians, very emphatically draws the line between people of the flesh and people of the Spirit. The people who have recieved the gifts of the Spirit through their faith, Paul says, are able to judge everything and is not subject to anyone (Chapter 2:15).

In my...admittedly non-historical and scantily-educated-in-theology mind, it seems to advocate a case opposing to the one in the adultery parable. Here, those who are of the spirit are capable of judging, and are impervious to being judged themselves - it is easy to imagine that in such an invincible position, people of the spirit, or at least, people who -think- the are of the spirit, with much enthusiasm would exercise the right to judge, with no fear of being judged in return.

In fact, Paul in some instances, is pretty judgemental. His epistles are peppered with constant reassurances that he speaks of God, not of man, or of himself; be that as it may, Paul calls Peter wrong and essentially calls him a cliquish coward in front of the congregation at Antioch, and he doesn't hesitate a bit to call the Galatians idiots and omit a thanksgiving to God for their Christian community (despite the fact that the community at Corinth seemed much more deprave than the one at Galatia).

Granted: I fear that I'm most likely pulling a "protestant" and relying solely on the Bible and taking things out of context to boot. That's why I'm here - maybe I'm missing some context or tradition that'll help things make sense. Is there a solidly defined church teaching on something as obviously un-Jesus as being judgemental?

I'm curious because I sadly encounter alot of Christians, from all denominations, who, despite being armed to the teeth with near-encyclopedic knowledge of their denomination's philosophy, are surprisingly...well...judgemental. It surprises me with what ease I've seen people belt off "The Catholics are such and such" or "The orthodox are so and so" or "The Messianic Jews are such and such." Usually such and such or so and so being something negative and unnecessary. I've ALSO seen an abuse on the OTHER side of the coin, where people say "The (Catholics/Orthodoxes/Protestsants/Jews) are SO intolerant and judgemental - don't even bother talking to them" which is...you guessed it...unnecessarily judgemental in and of itself. The amount of judgements I see over the entirety of CF is...well...profoundly disturbing. And of course, the wonderful coup-de-grace, is that in making all these pronouncements, I too, I suppose, am being judgemental to a degree.

It just strikes me that such proclamations on any part - me, Orthodox, Catholic, or ANYONE - is inherently unchristian. The adultery story tells me that. However, Paul's actions AND words tell me otherwise... they seem to even imply that judging is the RIGHT of those of the Spirit. For me, everything gets muddy at that point. How do you know if you have the Spirit? How do you know if being judgemental is right, and if it is, WHO among all those who are being judgemental are really right, and who are the false teachers? Or is pronouncing judgements solely God's domain, I'm taking this all out of context, misunderstanding it - and all the judgemental people on CF, including myself, need to back off?

Thanks for your help.
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!

  #2  
Old 12th August 2004, 03:05 PM
ukok's Avatar
Freaked out, insecure, neurotic and Emotional

46 Gender: Female Faith: Catholic Country: United Kingdom Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 1st March 2003
Location: England
Posts: 11,100
Blessings: 127,524
My Mood Fine
Reps: 491,022,733 (power: 491,045)
ukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond repute
ukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond reputeukok has a reputation beyond repute
I suppose that when you think about it, Christ founded One Church, not a couple of hundred thousand and so whilst we should endeavour not to be judgemental of the person, we most certainly can know, with all authority, judge that the Catholic Church IS that one church , founded by our Lord...and hence, we can know that we can differentiate ourselves from non-Catholic denominations and know that we carry the Fullness of Truth..does this mean that we should look upon others, or the multitude of denominationalism with disdain...certainly not....Christ commissioned us to go out to all nations and preach his word. to love and serve other's...and yet, their is almost and possibly what can accurately be described as an inherent tendency of self approval..and for those who go against our particular 'grain'...to stir within us such feelings of pride and scorn and judgement....we must always guard against our humanity.

there is such a thing as a correct judgement, but ultimately the only judgement that matter's is in the hand's of God Himself.
__________________
"If you blow on a spark, it will glow; if you spit on it, it will be put out; yet both come out of your mouth " ~ Sirach 28:12

"How will your patience be crowned, if you are not willing to endure hardship? Suffer with Christ, and for Christ, if you wish to reign with Christ" ~ Thomas A Kempis
  #3  
Old 12th August 2004, 03:12 PM
Brother Simon's Avatar
And His name shall be called Wonderful...

27 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 2nd August 2004
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,578
Blessings: 79,597
Reps: 272,280,572,451,932 (power: 272,280,572,462)
Brother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond repute
Brother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond reputeBrother Simon has a reputation beyond repute
I thought I would add that Mother Theresa once said,

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them."



Peace be with you,
Simon
  #4  
Old 14th August 2004, 12:14 AM
Regular Member

Faith: Christian Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 27th June 2004
Posts: 149
Blessings: 151,238
Reps: 27 (power: 0)
entropy_rising is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by ukok
I suppose that when you think about it, Christ founded One Church, not a couple of hundred thousand and so whilst we should endeavour not to be judgemental of the person, we most certainly can know, with all authority, judge that the Catholic Church IS that one church , founded by our Lord...and hence, we can know that we can differentiate ourselves from non-Catholic denominations and know that we carry the Fullness of Truth..does this mean that we should look upon others, or the multitude of denominationalism with disdain...certainly not....Christ commissioned us to go out to all nations and preach his word. to love and serve other's...and yet, their is almost and possibly what can accurately be described as an inherent tendency of self approval..and for those who go against our particular 'grain'...to stir within us such feelings of pride and scorn and judgement....we must always guard against our humanity.

there is such a thing as a correct judgement, but ultimately the only judgement that matter's is in the hand's of God Himself.
Many other Christian churches think the exact same things of themselves. They think they are a true Church of God and that everyone else is wrong. And from that position, they are judgemental of everyone else. I'm not saying that they're right in this opinion, but taking whoever really is "true" out of this picture, we're all judging each other, we're all pronouncing each other wrong. Is that Christian?

Isn't there a quote in Corinthians that warns the factions of devouring each other?
  #5  
Old 14th August 2004, 08:41 PM
BroIgnatius's Avatar
Spiritual Warrior

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Country: Vatican City State Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 6th September 2003
Location: Just outside the State of Grace
Posts: 187
Blessings: 76,282
My Mood Joyful
Reps: 608 (power: 0)
BroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really nice
Christ We are Commanded to make Judgments

Hi:

Contrary to popular opinion, the bible specifically tells us to make judgments. Admonishing a sinner and instructing the ignorant are two of the Spiritua Works of Mercy. One has to make a judgment that a sinner is a sinner in need of admonishing or a person is in need of instruction to be able to offer those works of love.

Love demands judgment, not a judgment of condemnation or hypocrisy, but a judgment of recognizing Truth and error. We are to judge ideas, philosophies, behavior, and actions. We are never to judge a person's heart or judge a person to hell.

Archbishop Beuchklin of Indianapolis identifies plausibility (the desire to never judge even at the expense of truth) as the major reason why catechesis in the United States is nearly zero. We are so concerned about not stepping on toes and not offending anyone that we are allowing people to live in error that risks their souls.

Even this Christian Forum appears to have more concern for not stepping on toes and not offending anyone than it does about truth. Most BBS's and Chatrooms do. Some of the rules of this forum would lead to St. Paul, for certain, to be banned. Cardinal Ratzinger would have a tough time here too

Jesus said that he did not come for peace, but for division, speaking to the fact that if we tell the Truth some people will be offended.

Truth is more important than peace.

This essay, "Three Secret Strategies of Satan" explains all this in detail and supports its points in Scripture:
http://www.saint-mike.org/library/BroJP/secret.asp
__________________
God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary, OMSM(r)+
Provost, Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael
saint-mike.org | saintpiocenter.org | centertruthjustice.org

Nihil amori Christi praeponere

  #6  
Old 14th August 2004, 08:52 PM
alucardr's Avatar
Veteran

31 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Country: United States Member For 5 Years
 
Join Date: 10th August 2004
Posts: 1,073
Blessings: 88,745
Reps: 1,612 (power: 12)
alucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of lightalucardr is a glorious beacon of light
True and final judgement is left to God, but we can give judgement based on what the scriptures say. If someone is doing something that goes against the word of God, then it is our duty to tell them so so that they might repent. This isn't a "holier than thou" attitude, but just using the knowledge God gave us to inform others, whether they choose to accept it or not.
  #7  
Old 16th August 2004, 09:31 AM
Dominus Fidelis's Avatar
ScottBot is Stalking Me!

40 Gender: Male Married Faith: Catholic Country: United States Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 10th September 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 9,280
Blessings: 92,511
Reps: 28,708,582 (power: 28,728)
Dominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond repute
Dominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond reputeDominus Fidelis has a reputation beyond repute
The difference is subtle and its a matter of degree.

For example, you observe someone lying. You can point out that they are lying, but its wrong to declare them to be a liar, because that is too strong of a judgement.
__________________
Catholicism - Throwing demons on their heads since 33 AD
  #8  
Old 16th August 2004, 11:45 AM
BroIgnatius's Avatar
Spiritual Warrior

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Country: Vatican City State Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 6th September 2003
Location: Just outside the State of Grace
Posts: 187
Blessings: 76,282
My Mood Joyful
Reps: 608 (power: 0)
BroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really nice
Christ

Originally Posted by Defens0rFidei
The difference is subtle and its a matter of degree.

For example, you observe someone lying. You can point out that they are lying, but its wrong to declare them to be a liar, because that is too strong of a judgement.
Hi:

Where does this standard and distinction come from? Certainly not the Bible. Jesus was pretty blunt. St. James called the people he was arguing with ignoramouses. Many of the saints were also blunt.

Two examples of saints:

The pacific St. Thomas of Aquinas forgets the calm of his cold syllogisms when he hurls his violent apostrophe against William of St. Amour and his disciples: "Enemies of God," he cries out, "ministers of the Devil, members of AntiChrist, ignorami, perverts, reprobates!"

The seraphic St. Bonaventure, so full of sweetness, overwhelms his adversary Gerard with such epithets as "impudent, calumniator, spirit of malice, impious, shameless, ignorant, impostor, malefactor, perfidious, ingrate!"

The distinction you are trying to make is a false distinction for the sake of plausibility. There is nothing wrong with your approach as long as you properly make note of the lie and not try to obfuscate it. But it is equally okay to use the term liar. A person who lies is a liar. That is not only the definition of the word, but is a kind of word Jesus, the Apostles, and the Saints have used and modelled to us.

Both ways are equally as good as the other, objectively, although yours and my personal preferences my lean one or to the other.
__________________
God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary, OMSM(r)+
Provost, Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael
saint-mike.org | saintpiocenter.org | centertruthjustice.org

Nihil amori Christi praeponere

  #9  
Old 16th August 2004, 11:51 AM
PeterPaul's Avatar
40 Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Party: US-Others Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 17th February 2004
Posts: 9,592
Blessings: 97,785
Reps: 1,331,208,897,407,708 (power: 1,331,208,897,427)
PeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond repute
PeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond reputePeterPaul has a reputation beyond repute
Originally Posted by BroIgnatius
Hi:

Where does this standard and distinction come from? Certainly not the Bible. Jesus was pretty blunt. St. James called the people he was arguing with ignoramouses. Many of the saints were also blunt.

Two examples of saints:

The pacific St. Thomas of Aquinas forgets the calm of his cold syllogisms when he hurls his violent apostrophe against William of St. Amour and his disciples: "Enemies of God," he cries out, "ministers of the Devil, members of AntiChrist, ignorami, perverts, reprobates!"

The seraphic St. Bonaventure, so full of sweetness, overwhelms his adversary Gerard with such epithets as "impudent, calumniator, spirit of malice, impious, shameless, ignorant, impostor, malefactor, perfidious, ingrate!"

The distinction you are trying to make is a false distinction for the sake of plausibility. There is nothing wrong with your approach as long as you properly make note of the lie and not try to obfuscate it. But it is equally okay to use the term liar. A person who lies is a liar. That is not only the definition of the word, but is a kind of word Jesus, the Apostles, and the Saints have used and modelled to us.

Both ways are equally as good as the other, objectively, although yours and my personal preferences my lean one or to the other.

But certainly, we can discern between one personality or another. We can know the effects certain chastisement can bring according to the person receiving it. Approach is everything.
  #10  
Old 16th August 2004, 05:58 PM
BroIgnatius's Avatar
Spiritual Warrior

Gender: Male Faith: Catholic Country: Vatican City State Member For 5 Years
View Profile Pic
 
Join Date: 6th September 2003
Location: Just outside the State of Grace
Posts: 187
Blessings: 76,282
My Mood Joyful
Reps: 608 (power: 0)
BroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really niceBroIgnatius is just really nice
Christ

Originally Posted by PeterPaul
But certainly, we can discern between one personality or another. We can know the effects certain chastisement can bring according to the person receiving it. Approach is everything.
Hi:

Well actually, truth is everything. Approach cannot be made a higher priority then truth. That leads to the plausibility that is attacking our Church.

Jesus did not hold back, but he also handled situations according to the needs of the person, which I think is what you are saying. With that I agree completely. Some people respond to a gentler approach and some need to be slapped upside the head.

The original statement on this was to suggest that the 'harsher' approach was not appropriate as being "too judgmental". That is what I am saying is a false distinction. BOTH approaches are proper and good, and both approaches need to be used in circumstances that warrant them.

As to the harsher approach, that is needed far more often than people think. In fact the bio-chemistry of the brain proves that the harsher approach is often needed to wake someone up. The old cliche, "He has made up his mind do not confuse him with the facts", reflects the way the bio-chemistry works in the brain concerning our beliefs and idea. The other cliche, "He will not come to his sense until he hits bottom", reflects what is needed for the brain to accept the facts that were previously rejected.

If interested, I can go into some details about how the brain works on this.

I quick example of the results of tough love is that I cannot tell you how many times I have received emails from people who said something like this: Brother, two weeks ago you insulted me and offended me to no end, but after I calmed down I realized that you were right and it changed my life."

To not use the tough love approach when needed is to tacitly encourage the person to continue in their sin or dysfuncational behavior. Those who have experiences with alcholics know this co-dependent trap. Sometimes the most loving thing one can do is to slap a person upside the head to wake them up to the facts and realities of what they are doing. And in nearly all cases, trying to beat around the bush is rarely effective.
__________________
God Bless,
Bro. Ignatius Mary, OMSM(r)+
Provost, Oblates and Missioners of St. Michael
saint-mike.org | saintpiocenter.org | centertruthjustice.org

Nihil amori Christi praeponere

Closed Thread


Return to One Bread, One Body - Catholic

Thread Tools
Display Modes


 
Become a CF Site Supporter Today and Make These Ads Go Away!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:48 PM.