Did Noah Save Insects?

Merlin · #21 23rd March 2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

So, what do you make of the fossil record? Why are the animals so much stranger the further down the geological strata we go? And are you ok with animal death before the fall?

About which organisms are alive. Have you thought about other biblical classifications, namely the one beloved of atheists, that bats are a type of bird (Lev 11). Now I don't have a problem with that at all. Categories are arbitrary, it is as legitimate to divide animals into beasts of the field, livestock and creepy crawlies; as it is to classify according to biological relationship. Mountain goats and domesticated goats are the same genus. Yet it is perfectly legitimate to classify them according to another aspect, their relationship to humans, wild or domesticated. Birds and bats fall into the same biblical category as animals with wings. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't mistake it for our modern classification of birds and think the bible says bats belong to Class Aves. But given we have these biblical classifications, it is worth pointing out that 'birds' includes not only birds and bats, but also locusts, which as an insect without nostrils you are not sure is even alive. It is one thing to place birds and bats in the same category, but non living creatures too?

The Bible doesn't refer to bats as birds though.
Some English translations do.
It is the translator that put them in the same group 'birds'

Assyrian · #22 23rd March 2009, 04:17 PM

True. But the same Hebrew word that means bird, also covers bats and locusts, anything with wings. Which makes it very cumbersome to translate. 'Wings of the air' just sounds odd, and if you use 'bird', which fit 95% of the time, you get bats being called 'birds' which doesn't fit in our English and modern scientific categories. It is a problem of ancient hebrew categories being different, while perfectly legitmate in their own terms.

Sphinx777 · #23 23rd March 2009, 05:06 PM

Insects (Class Insecta) are the biggest class of arthropods and the only ones with wings. They are the most diverse group of animals on the planet. They are most diverse at the equator and their diversity declines toward the poles. With over a million described species—more than half of all known living organisms—with estimates of undescribed species as high as 30 million, thus potentially representing over 90% of the differing life forms on the planet. Insects may be found in nearly all environments on the planet, although only a small number of species occur in the oceans, a habitat dominated by another arthropod group, the crustaceans.

There are approximately 2,200 species of praying mantis, 5,000 dragonfly species, 20,000 grasshopper, 82,000 true bug, 120,000 fly, 110,000 bee, wasp ant and sawfly, 170,000 butterfly and moth, and 360,000 beetle species described to date. Estimates of the total number of current species, including those not yet known to science, range from two million to fifty million, with newer studies favouring a lower figure of about six to ten million. Adult modern insects range in size from a 0.139 mm (0.00547 in) fairyfly (Dicopomorpha echmepterygis) to a 56.7 centimetres (22.3 in) long stick insect (Phobaeticus chani). The heaviest documented insect was a Giant Weta of 70 g (2½ oz), but other possible candidates include the Goliath beetles Goliathus goliatus, Goliathus regius and Cerambycid beetles such as Titanus giganteus, though no one is certain which is truly the heaviest.

The study of insects (from Latin insectus, meaning "cut into sections") is called entomology, from the Greek εντομον, also meaning "cut into sections".

juvenissun · #24 24th March 2009, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sphinx777

Insects[b][color=Teal] (Class Insecta) are the biggest class of arthropods and the only ones with wings. They are the most diverse group of animals on the planet. They are most diverse at the equator and their diversity declines toward the poles. With over a million described species—more than half of all known living organisms—with estimates of undescribed species as high as 30 million, thus potentially representing over 90% of the differing life forms on the planet. Insects may be found in nearly all environments on the planet, although only a small number of species occur in the oceans, a habitat dominated by another arthropod group, the crustaceans.

There are approximately 2,200 species of praying mantis, 5,000 dragonfly species, 20,000 grasshopper, 82,000 true bug, 120,000 fly, 110,000 bee, wasp ant and sawfly, 170,000 butterfly and moth, and 360,000 beetle species described to date. Estimates of the total number of current species, including those not yet known to science, range from two million to fifty million, with newer studies favouring a lower figure of about six to ten million. Adult modern insects range in size from a 0.139 mm (0.00547 in) fairyfly (Dicopomorpha echmepterygis) to a 56.7 centimetres (22.3 in) long stick insect (Phobaeticus chani). The heaviest documented insect was a Giant Weta of 70 g (2½ oz), but other possible candidates include the Goliath beetles Goliathus goliatus, Goliathus regius and Cerambycid beetles such as Titanus giganteus, though no one is certain which is truly the heaviest.

The study of insects (from Latin insectus, meaning "cut into sections") is called entomology, from the Greek εντομον, also meaning "cut into sections".

Thanks for the nice information. When I read it, a problem surfaced:

Why do insects have so many species? Or, in other words, how could evolution of insects make so many species?

Yes, insects are short-life creatures. So they can go though many more generations and it increases the chance and the rate of evolution. But are there other creatures with even shorter life span? If so, do they have even more species? Is the number of species inversely proportional to the life span? I don't know, but I don't think so.

I know people have studied the mutation of fruit fly and tried to see its evolutional change. But I did not remember any break through news on the discovery of that research. Most likely it did not success on its goal.

Would the vast number of species on insects be another witness of creation?

Assyrian · #25 25th March 2009, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Sphinx777;51234902[B

The study of insects (from Latin insectus, meaning "cut into sections") is called entomology, from the Greek εντομον, also meaning "cut into sections".[/b]

With a name like that they are just asking for trouble.

It is like shoals of sardines, what do they do when they are surrounded by predators? They form a 'bait ball'. Don't they ever think about the name?

gluadys · #26 25th March 2009, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by juvenissun

Thanks for the nice information. When I read it, a problem surfaced:

Why do insects have so many species? Or, in other words, how could evolution of insects make so many species?

Probably because they adapt to fit into so many ecological niches. And they often specialize--with different species of closely-related insects specializing in different species of plant food. A single plant can host dozens of different insect communities--in its bark, its roots, its leaves, its fruit. And right next to it a plant of a different species hosts other species of insects which are adapted to it. (That is why interplanting is an effective way to reduce pests in your garden.)

Merlin · #27 25th March 2009, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Assyrian

True. But the same Hebrew word that means bird, also covers bats and locusts, anything with wings. Which makes it very cumbersome to translate. 'Wings of the air' just sounds odd, and if you use 'bird', which fit 95% of the time, you get bats being called 'birds' which doesn't fit in our English and modern scientific categories. It is a problem of ancient hebrew categories being different, while perfectly legitmate in their own terms.

that was my point.

juvenissun · #28 25th March 2009, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by gluadys

Probably because they adapt to fit into so many ecological niches. And they often specialize--with different species of closely-related insects specializing in different species of plant food. A single plant can host dozens of different insect communities--in its bark, its roots, its leaves, its fruit. And right next to it a plant of a different species hosts other species of insects which are adapted to it. (That is why interplanting is an effective way to reduce pests in your garden.)

If so, may be we could show that the smaller the insects the more species would there be? (the more niches could exist)

I don't think it is true.

gluadys · #29 26th March 2009, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by juvenissun

If so, may be we could show that the smaller the insects the more species would there be? (the more niches could exist)

I don't think it is true.

I have no idea, but what I would expect is that in any family of insects there would be a range of sizes. Maybe the families with the largest number of species also show more variation in size.

juvenissun · #30 26th March 2009, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by gluadys

I have no idea, but what I would expect is that in any family of insects there would be a range of sizes. Maybe the families with the largest number of species also show more variation in size.

Good guess. Hope an entomologist would spring up in this forum.