Origins TheologyForum for the discussion of Creation Science (Young/Old) vs Theistic Evolution. Discussion of Atheistic Evolution should be taken to the Discussion and Debate forums.
Lets see, you flood the earth with torrents that grind the surface of the earth into sediment kilometres thick, swirl the world ocean around with hurricanes, flood surges, fountains of the deep, and giant tides unhindered by land for about a year, and after all that there are still pockets of clean water?
In fact, you do present a good idea of study. Since the volume of ocean water is (always) much bigger than the volume of sediments, it would be interested to see if there could be enough sediments generated to muddy all the water. Only the clay can be transported to ocean far away from the land. And a flood is a very poor mean to make loose clays.
But does that mean they survived the flood, or as some creationists claim, that they aren't actually alive?
Hey, Assyrian, if you know any other creationist has a similar idea on the definition of life as I have, please let me know. So far, I suspect that I am the only one (can't be true) thinks it that way. Kind of lonely.
Hey, Assyrian, if you know any other creationist has a similar idea on the definition of life as I have, please let me know. So far, I suspect that I am the only one (can't be true) thinks it that way. Kind of lonely.
It is an idea that keeps coming up. The most common form is the claim that plants aren't alive so it was alright to eat them before the fall, they didn't die because thee weren't alive. But it is also applied to insects and bacteria. It is hard to remember who used the argument in the past, and word searches are tricky because it can be phrased different ways and the same phrases can be used in other contexts. There is an old post from a non active poster mhess13 here http://christianforums.com/showpost....1&postcount=25
Try a google search for
"plants are not alive" AND "breath of life"
or
"insects are not alive" AND "breath of life"
The only hit for
"bacteria are not alive" AND "breath of life"
is in a thread Yes there is great LSD going around on a cannabis forum
Originally Posted by juvenissun
In fact, you do present a good idea of study. Since the volume of ocean water is (always) much bigger than the volume of sediments, it would be interested to see if there could be enough sediments generated to muddy all the water. Only the clay can be transported to ocean far away from the land. And a flood is a very poor mean to make loose clays.
Where do you think clays come from?
There one major difference between standard geology and a global flood that should effect clay transport. In geology sediment bearing water flows down rivers into a shallow sea and anywhere it slows it deposits it sediment. In a global flood not only do you have a very rapid flow of water, you also have tides unbound by landmasses. In a shallow sea you will have tides washing back and forth gently. In a global flood the volume of sediment bearing water will keep getting pulled along by the tide getting faster and faster without any continents to stop them. If they were free to flow without any resistance, tides would travel the world in synch with the moon every 25 hours or about 1,600 km/h at the equator, fine for liquid helium but unrealistic for water. But tsunamis seem quite happy crossing deep water at about 800 km/h. Perhaps shernren can tell us a bit more about the physics, how much of this is the movement of a mass of water or a shock wave propegated by oscillating water molecules. Then again the tsunami is travelling through a mass of water that is otherwise fairly still, but with global tides, not only is our mass of sediment bearing water pulled forward, the water ahead of it will be pulled forward too as the tidal pull travels even faster around the world. So our muddy water is not going to hit a larger volume od still water and dissipate, the water ahead of it gets pulled out of the way. Each time the tide comes around the sediment bearing water gets faster and faster. Add to that mixing between the different layers and sediment will spread around the world.
I suppose it comes back to my old challenge, flood geology should be able to track the movement of all the currents of sediment bearing water around the world by looking at where the sediment settled. You should be able to study basement rock on one continent and find sediment particles from it around the world. A mass of sediment bearing rock shouldn't just stop in the middle of a flood and dump all its sediment, there should be a trail of its sediment in other strata it has passed over as it travels to its dumping ground. It should be like unravelling a giant golf ball. If it is a global flood that is.
And as you said flood is not a good way to make clays. It is a classic problem for a global flood. The flood has to be turbulent enough to wear down continents and transport sand, gravel and rocks; yet is is gentle enough for the fine silt to settle out as shale. You still have to keep transporting vast volumes of sediment bearing water into a region to lay down layers of rock kilometres thick, while at the same time the water itself has to be still and calm for the fine particles to settle out.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
It is an idea that keeps coming up. The most common form is the claim that plants aren't alive so it was alright to eat them before the fall, they didn't die because thee weren't alive. But it is also applied to insects and bacteria.
It is great. Thanks. Not sure where is mhess13 now, but I am glad.
To me, I look this matter deeper than just from the Biblical point of view. I believe it can also be argued from the biological point of view. In particular, when every scientist is crazy about searching alien life today, this issue becomes more relevant, even critical, to Christian.
mhess13 suggested human did not eat meat until after the Noah's Flood (Gen 9:3). I did not think about that verse, and I always assumed that Adam started to eat animals after the Fall. If so, what was Abel doing by raising bunch of sheep? Eat milk and cheese? And sell sheep to people who needs an offering? No wonder Cain was not favored. He should have known better and buy a sheep from his brother.
Where do you think clays come from?
There one major difference between standard geology and a global flood that should effect clay transport. In geology sediment bearing water flows down rivers into a shallow sea and anywhere it slows it deposits it sediment. In a global flood not only do you have a very rapid flow of water, you also have tides unbound by landmasses. In a shallow sea you will have tides washing back and forth gently. In a global flood the volume of sediment bearing water will keep getting pulled along by the tide getting faster and faster without any continents to stop them. If they were free to flow without any resistance, tides would travel the world in synch with the moon every 25 hours or about 1,600 km/h at the equator, fine for liquid helium but unrealistic for water. But tsunamis seem quite happy crossing deep water at about 800 km/h. Perhaps shernren can tell us a bit more about the physics, how much of this is the movement of a mass of water or a shock wave propegated by oscillating water molecules. Then again the tsunami is travelling through a mass of water that is otherwise fairly still, but with global tides, not only is our mass of sediment bearing water pulled forward, the water ahead of it will be pulled forward too as the tidal pull travels even faster around the world. So our muddy water is not going to hit a larger volume od still water and dissipate, the water ahead of it gets pulled out of the way. Each time the tide comes around the sediment bearing water gets faster and faster. Add to that mixing between the different layers and sediment will spread around the world.
I suppose it comes back to my old challenge, flood geology should be able to track the movement of all the currents of sediment bearing water around the world by looking at where the sediment settled. You should be able to study basement rock on one continent and find sediment particles from it around the world. A mass of sediment bearing rock shouldn't just stop in the middle of a flood and dump all its sediment, there should be a trail of its sediment in other strata it has passed over as it travels to its dumping ground. It should be like unravelling a giant golf ball. If it is a global flood that is.
And as you said flood is not a good way to make clays. It is a classic problem for a global flood. The flood has to be turbulent enough to wear down continents and transport sand, gravel and rocks; yet is is gentle enough for the fine silt to settle out as shale. You still have to keep transporting vast volumes of sediment bearing water into a region to lay down layers of rock kilometres thick, while at the same time the water itself has to be still and calm for the fine particles to settle out.
It amazed me by seeing you wrote so much about the sedimentology of the Flood. While I can not address your concerns with enough confidence (I never thought about factors like tide or tsunami. People do not think they are effective factors in sedimentary transportation today. they simply roll the sediments back and forth.), I do can say the following:
Clay comes from the chemical deterioration of rocks. It takes time and could not be made by simply pulverizing rocks. I do not know how are clays transported in today's ocean, even maps of clay distribution in oceanic sediments are available. And when I think about it more, I started to doubt whether Noah's Flood is able to make the (today's) ocean murky enough to kill all the fishes. Of course, I don't think the ocean was the same in Noah's time.
Just read the Bible.
no, noah didn't take insects or fish
Gen 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Shema America,
Adonai Elohenu Adonai Echad!
Last edited by Merlin; 22nd March 2009 at 05:12 PM.
It is great. Thanks. Not sure where is mhess13 now, but I am glad.
To me, I look this matter deeper than just from the Biblical point of view. I believe it can also be argued from the biological point of view. In particular, when every scientist is crazy about searching alien life today, this issue becomes more relevant, even critical, to Christian.
mhess13 suggested human did not eat meat until after the Noah's Flood (Gen 9:3). I did not think about that verse, and I always assumed that Adam started to eat animals after the Fall. If so, what was Abel doing by raising bunch of sheep? Eat milk and cheese? And sell sheep to people who needs an offering? No wonder Cain was not favored. He should have known better and buy a sheep from his brother.
Bear in mind Gen 4:4 and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering. Abel offered the the fat of the lambs as a sacrifice. What do you think he did with the lean lamb chops?
It amazed me by seeing you wrote so much about the sedimentology of the Flood. While I can not address your concerns with enough confidence (I never thought about factors like tide or tsunami. People do not think they are effective factors in sedimentary transportation today. they simply roll the sediments back and forth.), I do can say the following:
Clay comes from the chemical deterioration of rocks. It takes time and could not be made by simply pulverizing rocks. I do not know how are clays transported in today's ocean, even maps of clay distribution in oceanic sediments are available. And when I think about it more, I started to doubt whether Noah's Flood is able to make the (today's) ocean murky enough to kill all the fishes. Of course, I don't think the ocean was the same in Noah's time.
If pulverisation doesn't work how did the flood produce all the clay based sedimentary rock we see around the world? I can see how modern oceans or the shallow seas of millions of years ago would not transport silt that far. It washes down the river and when it gets to the sea the currents slow down and the particles settle out. Storms bring a lot more water and the silt spreads further, but it still slows down in the main body of water. But in a global flood, free moving global tides would keep the waters moving faster than we see in storm swelled rivers. If a global flood could produce the amount of sediment we see in the worlds sedimentary rocks, which it sounds like it couldn't, then the global tidal surge would keep the sediment in suspension and suffocate the fish. Either way flood geology is in trouble.
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bear in mind Gen 4:4 and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering. Abel offered the the fat of the lambs as a sacrifice. What do you think he did with the lean lamb chops?
If pulverisation doesn't work how did the flood produce all the clay based sedimentary rock we see around the world? I can see how modern oceans or the shallow seas of millions of years ago would not transport silt that far. It washes down the river and when it gets to the sea the currents slow down and the particles settle out. Storms bring a lot more water and the silt spreads further, but it still slows down in the main body of water. But in a global flood, free moving global tides would keep the waters moving faster than we see in storm swelled rivers. If a global flood could produce the amount of sediment we see in the worlds sedimentary rocks, which it sounds like it couldn't, then the global tidal surge would keep the sediment in suspension and suffocate the fish. Either way flood geology is in trouble.
Yes. I never think all the sedimentary rocks today were made by the Flood only. This is not creation, but is a physical/chemical process. In fact, I think the Flood itself did not make much significant impact on the sedimentary record of the earth. There must be water and related sedimentary processes before the Flood. Animals died and buried, etc. Again, the longevity of people before Abraham is a key problem related to the Flood. I don't think Moses would make up those unreasonable ages without a solid inspiration.
So, what do you make of the fossil record? Why are the animals so much stranger the further down the geological strata we go? And are you ok with animal death before the fall?
About which organisms are alive. Have you thought about other biblical classifications, namely the one beloved of atheists, that bats are a type of bird (Lev 11). Now I don't have a problem with that at all. Categories are arbitrary, it is as legitimate to divide animals into beasts of the field, livestock and creepy crawlies; as it is to classify according to biological relationship. Mountain goats and domesticated goats are the same genus. Yet it is perfectly legitimate to classify them according to another aspect, their relationship to humans, wild or domesticated. Birds and bats fall into the same biblical category as animals with wings. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't mistake it for our modern classification of birds and think the bible says bats belong to Class Aves. But given we have these biblical classifications, it is worth pointing out that 'birds' includes not only birds and bats, but also locusts, which as an insect without nostrils you are not sure is even alive. It is one thing to place birds and bats in the same category, but non living creatures too?
__________________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Insects, arthropods, and fish don't have nostrils.
Fish have nostrils. Some of them, like lungfish even have internal nares, as we do. Hence, at least some fish would have been taken aboard. It would make sense for lungfish, which would have died in brackish or salt water.
BTW:
By contrast, land vertebrates - technically known as tetrapods, because of their four limbs - have nasal passages that open to the outside world through a pair of external nostrils, and to the throat through a pair of internal nostrils or choanae. Many biologists suspect the choanae evolved from one pair of fish nostrils that migrated over millions of years to a new position inside the throat. To do that, however, the nostrils would have had to cross through the line of teeth at some point, a move that sceptics regarded as unlikely. Perfect intermediate
Their doubts should vanish, thanks to a careful reconstruction of several fossilised skulls of the most primitive known ancestor of tetrapods, a fish known as Kenichthys campbelli, from Yunnan, China. In Kenichthys, the second pair of nostrils opens neither externally nor internally, but directly into a gap in the row of teeth (Nature, vol 432, p 94). "It's as if we were to have a nostril located on the upper jaw margin between the canine and the adjacent incisor," says Per Ahlberg of Uppsala University in Sweden, who did the study with Min Zhu of the Chinese Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology (IVPP) in Beijing. In short, Kenichthys is a perfect intermediate, says John Maisey, a vertebrate palaeontologist at the American Museum of Natural History in New York. Developing human embryos have a gap in the same place in the upper jaw, which later fuses. If it fails to fuse, the result is a cleft palate or cleft lip. Most likely, then, these birth defects arise from the same developmental process that gave us the ability to breathe through our noses, says Ahlberg. http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-nostrils.html
Linear Mode
