Arguably the same goes for gay men, but they remain unattracted to women.
But my point is if our sexual orientation is determined by our brains, they why do lesbians seem partly aroused by men, or straight women aroused by other women?
Homosexuality has been show to be heavily (but not totally) determined by our brains, which would mean they we are unable to chose our orientation. Fetishes on the other had develop over time, and we have control over them.
In other words, I think this particular bit of research is asking whether being gay is an orientation or a fetish.
if homosexuality is not totally determined by our brains (whatever that is supposed to mean) then that would mean that we ARE able to to choose our orientation. Since homosexuality is not genetically "determined" (in the sense that there is no such thing as a "gay gene") then homosexuals do in fact choose their orientation, though their reasons for doing so may be and is a whole complex set of reasons which may include some biological issues alongside of environmental factors. As Romans 1 indicates, this is the case.
In the end, whatever their reasons are for doing so, none of those reasons justify the behavior as morally neutral or morally approvable. In other words, homosexuality is sin, and practicing homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God per 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV) 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Homosexuality is no "worse" than any other sin, but, it is no better either. Its on the same ground as the other sins listed, so this is not about bashing homosexuals, its simply about being honest about what the Scripture states concerning those who persist in unrepentant sins.
In any case, studies have also shown that homosexual men can be conditioned to not be aroused by images of men. All they have to have is a strong desire to change their behavior/orientation, be willing to do whatever it takes to stop engaging in homosexual activities, and they can change. Regardless, just because a man is aroused by images of other men, this does not in and of itself indicate anything about the morality of the arousal. As someone well said, I suppose a person can be aroused by the picture of a dog, and no doubt pedophiles are aroused by the pictures of children, but in either case, their arousal itself is no indicator of the moral nature of that arousal. All it indicates is the depth of mankind's depravity, which is total. (that one was for you polycarp )
blessings, ken
__________________ "The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536
Either way, they have no standing to Lord it over the rest of us.
just like you have no standing to lord your opinion over Calvinists... IOW, the Calvinist no more "lords it over the rest of" you by sharing their views on doctrinal matters than you are lording it over Calvinists by saying that you disagree with Calvinists by stating your own theological views... so why the double standard? Why are you apparently free to state your views but when Calvinists do so they are 'lording it over" others?
…. and nor can you lord it over others by making your personal subjective experience some kind of norm or standard... I personally have no doubt about my own personal depravity and had not the Lord opened my eyes, taken out my heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh enabling me to believe savingly upon the Lord Jesus, due to my total depravity, I would never have chosen Him had He not chose me. There. Now you have met a Calvinist who holds the same standards concerning depravity to himself as he does to everyone else.
blessings,
ken
__________________ "The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536
Thats what I think, and I dont agree with certain groups of people expecting us to just supress it.
Just about my orientation in general. this recent realisation has me questioning everything.
Yeah, I definitely don't agree with suppression, either...just leads to self-hatred and -loathing. And really the only "choice" debate in homosexuality is whether you choose to act on your attractions or not. The old cliche of "You can't help who you fall in love with" is pretty much true. Morals have nothing to do with that. I don't see how two adults being in love can be a terrible thing. What's the line from The Matrix: "Being the One is sort of like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone."
Anyway, that's just my personal pontifications. It's easy to see how someone who has never had those feelings simply not being able to understand it. I don't understand how anybody I find unattractive finds a partner, but I don't question their love for one another.
And all the stuff about gay-conversion does not work. Sure, you can tell gay people what to do, and with enough guilt and pressure, people will do anything, but that doesn't change who they are. I've certainly put enough pressure on myself over the issue, but it doesn't change a thing. Just my experience.
Yeah, I definitely don't agree with suppression, either...just leads to self-hatred and -loathing. And really the only "choice" debate in homosexuality is whether you choose to act on your attractions or not. The old cliche of "You can't help who you fall in love with" is pretty much true. Morals have nothing to do with that. I don't see how two adults being in love can be a terrible thing. What's the line from The Matrix: "Being the One is sort of like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone."
Anyway, that's just my personal pontifications. It's easy to see how someone who has never had those feelings simply not being able to understand it. I don't understand how anybody I find unattractive finds a partner, but I don't question their love for one another.
And all the stuff about gay-conversion does not work. Sure, you can tell gay people what to do, and with enough guilt and pressure, people will do anything, but that doesn't change who they are. I've certainly put enough pressure on myself over the issue, but it doesn't change a thing. Just my experience.
Exactly, thats how i feel about it but I can never put it into words lol. Very well said
__________________ There is something pagan in me that I cannot shake off. In short, I deny nothing, but doubt everything. - Lord Byron
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Well, you can't deny your own feelings. If you are in love with a woman, then that's the way it is. I've come to terms with my attractions, and don't really feel ashamed about them, even though people try to make me feel ashamed of them. Nothing more human than being in love. What aren't you sure about? Feel free to share your feelings. I hope I can help.
With love.
of course you can deny your feelings... people do it all the time... Christians need to do it every time they have an inclination to sin.... a person may feel as if they are so angry that they could just kill someone... but just because they feel this way doesn't make it right... a person may strongly desire a certain car, but if it doesn't belong to them then even though they may feel like stealing it, they ought not... so whether you feel shame or not is really irrelavent... you are not the standard as to what ought to induce shame, ie, what sin is... and what shame we ought to experience as a result of that sin is defined, not by our relativistic inner emotions which change with the passing of cultural trends, but rather by an absolute moral standard and guide. I hope you never help others "feel good about their sin" because in doing so, you are acting as a teacher, and teachers are going to be subject to a greater level of judgment. James 3:1 (ESV) 1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
And many will thus fall under Paul's condemnation concerning the encouragement towards sin: Romans 1:24-32 (ESV) 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them."
blessings,
ken
__________________ "The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536
Yeah, I definitely don't agree with suppression, either...just leads to self-hatred and -loathing. And really the only "choice" debate in homosexuality is whether you choose to act on your attractions or not. The old cliche of "You can't help who you fall in love with" is pretty much true. Morals have nothing to do with that. I don't see how two adults being in love can be a terrible thing. What's the line from The Matrix: "Being the One is sort of like being in love. No one can tell you you're in love. You just know it. Through and through. Balls to bone."
Anyway, that's just my personal pontifications. It's easy to see how someone who has never had those feelings simply not being able to understand it. I don't understand how anybody I find unattractive finds a partner, but I don't question their love for one another.
And all the stuff about gay-conversion does not work. Sure, you can tell gay people what to do, and with enough guilt and pressure, people will do anything, but that doesn't change who they are. I've certainly put enough pressure on myself over the issue, but it doesn't change a thing. Just my experience.
of course gay conversion works... before the gays engaged in enough political lobbying and bullying such that the DSM changed homosexuality from being a mental illness there were lots of case studies where people changed their sexual inclinations, there was at least 80 years of research and case studies showing this to be true.... while change did not happen 100% of the time, no therapy for any disorder was successful 100% of the time... and if 100% success were necessary in order to to continue therapy, then psychiatry and counseling as a whole needs to shut down because it has never had a 100% success rate in changing any behavior....
...and even today, with the advent of even more strident efforts by the gay community to stifle conservative Christians and secular psychiatrists who deem homosexuality to be unhealthy for various reasons, ministries like Exodus, Genesis Counseling and NARTH prove that change is possible. Even secular counseling shows that change is possible, but again, political efforts by gays has all but shut down the efforts of psychiatrists and counselors to work with gays who want to leave their destructive lifestyles. see NARTH President is Given the Last Word on the Gay and Lesbian Task Force Report for more on the political maneuvering within the APA on the issue of change...
Gays and gay supporters have repeated the lies "sexual orientation is genetic" or "you can't change a person's sexual orientation" so often that unfortunately people have in the main, accepted their lies as truth, proving the adage 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV) 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."
Paul reminds us that even within the culture he was in, a culture much like ours today, change in lifestyle was possible:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (ESV) 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Since Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and forever, change is still possible. To deny this is to deny the power of God to change people's lives no matter their addictions, orientations and inclinations.
blessings, ken
__________________ "The venerable dead are waiting in my library to entertain me and relieve me from the nonsense of surviving mortals." Samuel Davies 1723-1761
"When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes." Erasumus 1466-1536
Last edited by epistemaniac; 22nd October 2009 at 10:50 PM.
You seem to want to make conservative Christians the victim here. Such is not the case, I'm afraid. And I know sexual orientation is not genetic, but that doesn't mean sexual orientation isn't predetermined.
And seeing as humans learn primarily by their experience, and seeing as I have personal experience with this, I'm afraid I'll stick to my own word. I have never met any homosexual for whom suppression and "changing" was a good and healthy process. It's destructive.
You seem to want to make conservative Christians the victim here. Such is not the case, I'm afraid. And I know sexual orientation is not genetic, but that doesn't mean sexual orientation isn't predetermined.
And seeing as humans learn primarily by their experience, and seeing as I have personal experience with this, I'm afraid I'll stick to my own word. I have never met any homosexual for whom suppression and "changing" was a good and healthy process. It's destructive.
I dont see how homosexuality is genetic at all. And think of it this way - not all diseases are genetic...does that mean to say they chose to have it affect them??? Of course Im not saying that its a disease but the logic that if it isnt genetic then its a decision is pretty stupid.
__________________ There is something pagan in me that I cannot shake off. In short, I deny nothing, but doubt everything. - Lord Byron
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I've had a lot of personal experience being aroung lesbians and would agree that the percentage of women who can swing both ways is far greater than men.
this could just be cultural. lesbianism is far more socially acceptable than male homosexuality. Guys who could "swing both ways" would probably just stick to women.
If it's not genetic, the conditioning that causes it happens pretty early. I knew in third grade which of my fellow students were gay, and it turned out later that I was right. I don't think I'm that good a guesser.
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