There are presently more than enough resources to create paradise. We have a behavior/mindset problem, not a resource problem. The ills in society are created by us and can be healed by us. This is continuously demonstrated everywhere around the globe.
We agree on this, but I am suggesting a starting point that's a bit closer to home.
In a sense I follow you. Very pleasant grounds can be estabished on just a few acres - and that is all I could ever care for. Nature as it now works throws too many weeds, too many critters, and just too much work to do more. All these problems go away in the restored environment. I presently have only 1 1/2 acres and with all that needs to be done that is less than fun.
We have divergent views of the state of fallen human nature and what can be expected. I take your statement (The ills in society are created by us and can be healed by us.) as we are capable of fixing ourselves. I don't see this in history or current events. This world is largely populated by the dire poor and this population is getting larger. The few rich are becoming richer and more unstable. The Scriptures seem to be pretty plain that we need a wonderful infusion of God's grace and work in us to make any real change. Jesus took great pains to make this work.
Perhaps the disconnect has less to do with the book being read and more to do with differing views regarding the accuracy and authority of the book. If that is truly the disconnect, then Sentipente and I have the same disconnect.
BFA
You are soooo right. To me it (writings of the Old and New Testament) is the handheld root of faith and practice. It contains all we need to know for salvation. It does not contain ALL truth. But it contains enough that all truth of consequence to our salvation can be defined and tested by it. Holy men of God wrote as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. That same Holy Spirit applies His inspiration to me as I read to make rightful and functional application. Even with that my understanding is both incomplete and personal. Having said that there are points of doctrine that are to be held in common by all who aspire to salvation by grace through faith in Jesus the Christ. God's love, our origin, the fall and our nature as a consequence, the life and death intervention of Jesus, the perpetual and full validity of the Decaloge, the destruction of sin and sinners attached to it so the universe can again be united as originally intended, the need to express this to others so they can avail themselves of the privileges God extends comprise outline points in the core of fundamental common ground. On these points and numerous others the Sciptures are totally accurate and authoritative. The earlier expression I made in this thread of how we can live like in the restored universe is personal and can be freely disposed of at will. Any dissention on points here expressed do comprise fundamental disconnects in our conversation as you rightly observed. Thanks calling this likelyhood to my attention.
We have divergent views of the state of fallen human nature and what can be expected. I take your statement (The ills in society are created by us and can be healed by us.) as we are capable of fixing ourselves. I don't see this in history or current events.
Not only can we see it, there's no way to miss it unless you aren't looking. This is continuously demonstrated by people who simply change their mind about how they will treat each other. There are two magazine that highlight examples. ODE - the magazine for "intelligent optimists." And YES - a magazine connected to the Positive Futures Network. There are many communities demonstrating their co-creative capacity. This is what it means to be made in the image of Creator - we are co-creators.
Originally Posted by OldStudent
I don't see this in history or current events. This world is largely populated by the dire poor and this population is getting larger. The few rich are becoming richer and more unstable.
You and I are part of a religion (Christianity) that is part of the problem, because we promote the idea of decline and rescue. Even if we subscribe to the idea of eventual decline, we should should do everything in every moment to take care of our brothers and sisters in the human family. Unfortunately, sometimes we act as if we are trying to precipitate the end. I'm quite sure Jesus would have some harsh things to say about our behavior given his message was clear to us on this issue. The two greatest commandments - Love God and Love Humans.
Originally Posted by OldStudent
The Scriptures seem to be pretty plain that we need a wonderful infusion of God's grace and work in us to make any real change. Jesus took great pains to make this work.
Said another way, all life stems from Source. Yes.
OldStudent, we are pointing to the same truth from different starting points. It looks radically different from each frame-of-reference individually. It's not so different from a larger perspective. But the behaviors that stem from those in each frame-of-reference can be much different - whether or not both are pointing toward the same truth. This is why it's so important to look at cause and effect when it comes to our behavior.
An associtated question is: why do I want to be saved? If in heaven there is no pain, no suffering, no sickness, no tears, no..., what is there? I,ve been bored and it didn't take long to get that way! Do we spend our days - interminable years - riding clouds, tipping in praise to God? If that is what heaven is about - count me out!! But if heaven can be a blast count me in!! Our view of heaven can have a profound effect on how we view salvation and how urgently we persue its accomplishment.
I have given this some thought and have written several pages on the matter. In the beginning the earth was "very good" even by God's standard. In the few verses expressing God's desires for man (generic not just gender) we find that we were at liberty to manage and shape things to our liking. Isaiah (mostly chs 65 and 66) has provided some glances into heaven. Jn 14:1-3 provides a hopeful starting place. Revelation 21 and 22 help. 1 Cor 2:9, "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
My dream is a bit extravagant. In brief, there are many galaxies, each with millons of stars so there is potential for hundreds of millions of planets. One has our (me and wife) name on it. Of course there will be no exclusivity. If you want to join us that will be fine. But our tastes aren't yours so you will have a space you will shape finely to your likings.
I enjoy things of science. I am wired as a techinican so there will be a lab that will permit study of natural processes, building things of curiosity and beauty. I am a frustrated musician. I like to try to play Bach. Few pieces ever written match the majesty of Saint-Seans organ symphony. I hope to take training in performance and composition from them. Large pipe organs are a wonderful delight. I plan to build a music hall that will contain a large 7 division organ. Its divisions of golden pipes will be highlighted in platinum and trimmed in turquoise. The console suspended from the ceiling will made of curly maple, diamond and saphire keys, with obsidian drawknobs. There will be a stage for all manner of performances. Every few thousand years an extravaganza will take place. All this in a building of translucent marbled blue/green glass with a muted iridesence.
There will be mountains where we can go play in the snow. We can enjoy the company of dolphins and octopus down in the ocean. There will be meadows for walks, ball games, and deer to roam. Scattered around them are delightful things things to eat just by reaching for them. Cozy nooks for quiet time and conversation. Water falls and pools to play in. Petting gardens where the herbs beg to be petted to release their fragrances. I hope this sounds like a place you would like to come and visit.
But all this is kind of like the little girl whose major delight is in the cake and punch at a wedding reception. The common focal point will be God. There will be wonderful times of corporate worship. There have been times when I have been playing the organ as the congregation sang in worship and fought tears hard because organ insides don't like salt water and I still needed to read the music and it would have been disruptive to just stop. There there will be no reason to hold back. Jesus held large congregations spellbound for hours here. What will it be like there? There will be times of intimate conversation with Him. There will be moments when He will get this funny glint in His eye and seed me with a new riddle to solve.
There will be millions of people to get to know and invite over. There will angels and other beings of God's creation that will be facinating to converse with.
Yes, I think I can easily spend millions of years and not be concerned with boredom. How about you? Why would I not share this dream with anyone willing to listen? If it is dreams from which lasers, computers, and symphonies were born, and God embedded the seeds of such dreams of heaven in Scriptures then why not?
All what you described can be acheived on earth. All these materials can be acheived and then experienced here. heaven sounds like a place where you go to indulge into the things you couldn't get here, for whatever reason. You try to find happiness in material things that are not real. Your attached to falsehood, not God. God is what we are suppose to be attached to and want to be with. Also this turns into a give and take relationship with God where you say, "God I will love you if you give so in so. God is beyond these relationships. And his devotee should be also.
[quote=Avonia;53070807]There are presently more than enough resources to create paradise. We have a behavior/mindset problem, not a resource problem. The ills in society are created by us and can be healed by us. This is continuously demonstrated everywhere around the globe.
What good would it do to use the resources to create paradise on earth even if you could? As long as sin and rebellion are in the world, it would NOT be a paradise!!!! No you cannot heal yourself from sin, only Christ can forgive and cleanse sin. And there will be few that will do so. People sin because they are deceived by satan. And they desire it that way.
__________________ God is great and greatly to be praised
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What good would it do to use the resources to create paradise on earth even if you could? As long as sin and rebellion are in the world, it would NOT be a paradise!!!! No you cannot heal yourself from sin, only Christ can forgive and cleanse sin. And there will be few that will do so. People sin because they are deceived by satan. And they desire it that way.
Rain forests are disappearing because we are cutting them down. People are starving because we are not taking care of each other. We have wars in the name of God - on both sides - because we have such a distorted view of God.
A satan did none of this. We did.
The difficult conditions we find ourselves in are because of choosing fear over love. Fear causes separation. Separation is essence of "sin." When we are in fear, it's easy to serve self and not each other.
But there is more to the story. Across the planet, throughout time, people have demonstrated the power of love. Entire communities of indentured servants have been freed because of the power of love - by a single person. Healthcare has been delivered in the most unlikely places because a few people refused to accept the current reality (there is an amazing example of this in India). In less than one lifetime, we lived in a reality where people couldn't sit together because of the color of their skin - and now we have a black president.
A cosmic rescuer did none of this. We did.
We do not have to wait for God - God is everywhere, all of the time. But Christians do not always act well, because we are too busy waiting.
There are presently more than enough resources to create paradise. We have a behavior/mindset problem, not a resource problem. The ills in society are created by us and can be healed by us. This is continuously demonstrated everywhere around the globe.
What good would it do to use the resources to create paradise on earth even if you could? As long as sin and rebellion are in the world, it would NOT be a paradise!!!! No you cannot heal yourself from sin, only Christ can forgive and cleanse sin. And there will be few that will do so. People sin because they are deceived by satan. And they desire it that way.
Ms. Elly, you need to think more closely about what you say. You seem to think that the answer lies in getting rid of the people who "desire it that way." That problem with that solution is the fact that these people did not make things the way they now are.
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