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when Paul said 'imitate me as I imitate Christ', how far did he want us to imitate him, after all he kept the sabbath (and the customs)?
Steve
p.s. for those who have itunes on their pc's, search for podcasts entitled, Shomer Mitzvot - they have a set of podcasts (free) on the subject of galatians from a messianic judaic perspective currently in the 36th session (mostly an hour or so long)... well worth the listen.
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Blessed is the one coming in the name of ha’shem - בּרוּךְ הַבָּא בְּשֵׁם יְיָ
Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling..... be glory, majesty, dominion and authority for ever. (Jude) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is important to be clear. I don't think anyone here is saying the keeping the commandments results in salvation.
The question should be reversed. Does being saved result in keeping the commandments?
__________________ Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences. –C.S. Lewis”
Coll.2:
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
I have decided to include verse 17 in your quote, as that provides are very pertinent qualifier regarding the Sabbath. The qualifier is those Sabbaths which are shadows of things to come.
3 points.
1. Paul is not saying that those Sabbaths are now null and void. He is saying that we ought to let no-one judge us regarding our observation of them.
2. The weekly Sabbath is not a shadow of anything to come. It is a memorial of creation. It does not look forward, but looks back. Therefore the weekly Sabbath of the 4th commandment is not what Paul is referring to.
3. If he was indeed suggesting that the weekly Sabbath was now abrogated, it would have caused such a furore within Judaism and the then very fledgling Christian world that the letters would have been literally flying from the pens of the apostles to everyone and anyone who could read in defense against the many and bitter charges of blasphemy etc that would be coming from every man, woman and child of Jewish descent in the then known world. Yet the truth is that there was not a whimper. Not even a whisper, debate, argument, controversy or fight. Not one. Instead, the discussion , when it concerns any change from Judaism, centers around circumcision. Why is that do you think? I would strongly suggest that it is because there was no cause for any debate on that matter. Because the early church kept the Sabbath as faithfully as any orthodox Jew. As an honest study of the scriptures, and history, bears out.
Your reference to Miller I find fascinating. He played a huge role in the great awakening of the early and middle 19th century which was a world-wide phenomenon. He wasn't the only person of this time period that began preaching on the second coming. South America, and Europe heard the message from many spirit filled and led preachers of the gospel. It was the Holy Spirit who brought this about. Miller was one of many. He set a date, very true. That the date he set did not bring about the second coming, is well known as the great disappointment. Though he clearly had the occasion wrong as Jesus certainly did not return on that date, are you so sure he had the date wrong, but misunderstood the event that was to take place on that date?
Besides all that, Miller was never a seventh day adventist. He never accepted the Sabbath, the SDA church did not formally organise into a group of believers until the 1860s.
Quote: I submit that Christ has fulfilled the Law and Christians are under no obligation to keep the Law.
Which law are you referring to ? Because Jesus fulfilled the 6th commandment by not killing anyone, are we now free to kill seeing we are no longer obliged to obey?
Quote: I judge you according to your fruits. By your fruits I know you, as Christ Himself has said.
So if my fruits are wrought in obedience to God's commandments, are you saying that is a bad thing? I thought the purpose and fruit of the gospel was achange in the life. From darkness to light, fro error to truth, from selfishness to love. etc. Or are you suggesting that because "Jesus fulfilled the law", the Christian remains as he was before conversion, that is disobedient to the law?
According to my Bible, through the cross Christ has made me free from sin and a servant of righteousness. (Rom.6:18) In verse 22 Paul says we are servants to God, and our fruit unto holiness. Please tell me how one can be a servant of rightousenss, a servant of God, and be holy as He is holy, if we are not keeping His commandments?
__________________ Life is not about our performance, right or wrong. It's about what Jesus desires to accomplish in and through us to establish His kingdom.
Jesus will come back again when life here is so bad, that He risks losing more than He gains. He will show up to save the most people possible. Chris Blake.
He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God. Micah 6:8
2. The weekly Sabbath is not a shadow of anything to come. It is a memorial of creation. It does not look forward, but looks back. Therefore the weekly Sabbath of the 4th commandment is not what Paul is referring to.
But the weekly Sabbath is a shadow of things to come. In this regard Hebrews 4 and the Sages of Israel agree.
Shabbat, our sages tell us, is "a taste of the World to Come." As the six-day workweek culminates in Shabbat, so, too, will the six millennia of our work and toil to make to world a home for G-d culminate in the Messianic Era -- "the day that is wholly Shabbat and tranquility, for life everlasting." (Talmud, Berachot 57b; Nachmonides on Genesis 1; Grace After Meals)
__________________ Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences. –C.S. Lewis”
I have decided to include verse 17 in your quote, as that provides are very pertinent qualifier regarding the Sabbath. The qualifier is those Sabbaths which are shadows of things to come.
3 points.
1. Paul is not saying that those Sabbaths are now null and void. He is saying that we ought to let no-one judge us regarding our observation of them.
Precisely, No one has the right to judge whether or not my obedience or lack of interest in festivals, new moons, or Sabbaths is correct. If a brother in Christ chooses to observe the day of the new moon, why should I care? If he doesn't, why should I care? I really don't care whether or not you observe the new moon. Likewise, other religious festivals and Sabbaths.
2. The weekly Sabbath is not a shadow of anything to come. It is a memorial of creation. It does not look forward, but looks back. Therefore the weekly Sabbath of the 4th commandment is not what Paul is referring to.
And where do we find this thought explicated in the New Testament?
3. If he was indeed suggesting that the weekly Sabbath was now abrogated, it would have caused such a furore within Judaism and the then very fledgling Christian world that the letters would have been literally flying from the pens of the apostles to everyone and anyone who could read in defense against the many and bitter charges of blasphemy etc that would be coming from every man, woman and child of Jewish descent in the then known world. Yet the truth is that there was not a whimper. Not even a whisper, debate, argument, controversy or fight. Not one. Instead, the discussion , when it concerns any change from Judaism, centers around circumcision. Why is that do you think? I would strongly suggest that it is because there was no cause for any debate on that matter. Because the early church kept the Sabbath as faithfully as any orthodox Jew. As an honest study of the scriptures, and history, bears out.
And you know this how? Certainly not by a single verse of the New Testament. What would have been blasphemed here that would have been such a mortal sin? The only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I submit that the Sabbath is not the Holy Spirit.
Your reference to Miller I find fascinating. He played a huge role in the great awakening of the early and middle 19th century which was a world-wide phenomenon.
Actually, he played a small role, somewhat on the order of Mother Ann Lee, who founded the Shakers. Unlike the Shakers, the Millerites came to a rather abrupt end following the failure of Mr. Miller's first date, which was followed by other dating attempts, all of which were equally incorrect.
He wasn't the only person of this time period that began preaching on the second coming. South America, and Europe heard the message from many spirit filled and led preachers of the gospel.
Such as Mother Ann Lee and a host of other individuals. That they were spirit-filled and led depends on the definition of spirit. They were hardly led by the Holy Spirit as they seriously contradicted each other. Unless God is the author of confusion and contradiction, then one must conclude that, at best, one of the bunch was right and the others were wrong.
It was the Holy Spirit who brought this about.
And we know this how?
Miller was one of many. He set a date, very true. That the date he set did not bring about the second coming, is well known as the great disappointment. Though he clearly had the occasion wrong as Jesus certainly did not return on that date, are you so sure he had the date wrong, but misunderstood the event that was to take place on that date?
Yes.
Besides all that, Miller was never a seventh day adventist. He never accepted the Sabbath, the SDA church did not formally organise into a group of believers until the 1860s.
Quite correct. At that point Ellen White picked up the ball and ran with it, so to speak.
Quote: I submit that Christ has fulfilled the Law and Christians are under no obligation to keep the Law.
Which law are you referring to ? Because Jesus fulfilled the 6th commandment by not killing anyone, are we now free to kill seeing we are no longer obliged to obey?
I suggest that you read both Romans and Galatians and tell me if Paul neatly snips up the Law for us. As I read it there was but one Law consisting of all the commandments and ordinances of God.
Quote: I judge you according to your fruits. By your fruits I know you, as Christ Himself has said.
So if my fruits are wrought in obedience to God's commandments, are you saying that is a bad thing?
Not in the least. However, you do not obey God's commandments, nor are you even capable of doing so to His satisfaction, which is absolute perfection. You certainly do not obey God's express commandment concerning the Sabbath, so what makes you believe that you actually do obey His commandments?
I thought the purpose and fruit of the gospel was achange in the life. From darkness to light, fro error to truth, from selfishness to love. etc. Or are you suggesting that because "Jesus fulfilled the law", the Christian remains as he was before conversion, that is disobedient to the law?
Then you thought wrong. If Christ came merely to reform the Law for us and enable us somehow to fulfill the Law by our works, then He died needlessly. The purpose of the gospel is to justify sinful people in the sight of a holy God that they might become children of God through faith in Christ and heirs of eternal life in heaven.
According to my Bible, through the cross Christ has made me free from sin and a servant of righteousness. (Rom.6:18) In verse 22 Paul says we are servants to God, and our fruit unto holiness. Please tell me how one can be a servant of rightousenss, a servant of God, and be holy as He is holy, if we are not keeping His commandments?
Very simply, through the same faith that Abraham had. When was Abraham justified before God? After he had been circumcised and began obeying God's commands or before he had done a single thing?
One must realize that Christianity is like a continuation of the Judaism of the old testiment; in a way the judaism in the light of christ were the sanctuary service is symbolic of christ's atoning work. he died as the sacrificial lamb died and lives to as the priest to intercede for us to that last great day. as such christianity is informed by the judaism before as the God who set forth the tenets of judaism through Moses is the same God who sent Christ, The main mistake of christianity today is to say that all of the law was somehow done away with, including the ten commandments, which I believe are the transcript of God's character. Again this is my opinion but in many cases the same people who say that all the law including God's moral law was done away with are same people who say that somehow the God of the old testament is different from the God of the new testament.
In other words didn't jesus say "if you love me keep my commandments"?
John 14:15
And who was jesus but God.
forgive me for having a jumpy writing style and also if i am off subject here.
The OT is just that Old. We are now in the NT. The OT is the foreshadow of What was to come for the Law is fleshly and has been fulfilled. Now the New kingdom is Spiritual. We rest in Christ as our sabbath and it is an eternal rest. For now the law is not our righteousness but Christ is.
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O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; You have set Your glory above the heavens! Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have ordained strength, because of the ones distressing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease. Psa 8:3 When I look upon Your heavens, the work of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all under his feet: Psa 8:7 all flocks and oxen, and also the animals of the field, Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, all that pass through the sea. Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!
But how can that be when the majority of the promise that the earliest Christians had were from the OT, they had Christ of course but they had to understand he was the messiah from an old testament light, and of course they new that Christ was their righteousness. Jesus in the gospels of Mark and Luke taught the two men going to Emmaus from the old testament that he was supposed to died and be resurrected. the earliest Christians did not have a new testament. it seems that we say that we in NT times and forget OT is still important to a christian in understand what we believe and why we believe it. it seem to be so strange that true the sanctuary and its purposes along with other symbolic ceremonial services were abolished at Christ's death as they were the shadow of things to come- but show me were any of the ten commandment were done away with; is it alright to murder? to steal? to bear false witness? to have any other god before our Lord? why then is it that sabbath is some how abrogated? it is as moral as any other command in the ten as it honors the creator and gives him due worship. the teachings of the old testament are still valid, and the new testament expound upon them.
God Bless.
Last edited by CalmRon; 21st August 2009 at 02:27 PM.
Reason: misspellings
We are under a new covenant. The blood of Jesus not of the Old covenant. Christ is revealed in the OT because this was Gods plan from the very beginning. Read Genesis. The teachings of the OT was for the old covenant people. Isreal. We are the new covenant people. The very Body of Christ. Isreal needs to come to Christ in order to be saved. There is no other way. The law and its ordinances was nailed to the cross.
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O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth; You have set Your glory above the heavens! Psa 8:2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, You have ordained strength, because of the ones distressing You, to cause the enemy and the avenger to cease. Psa 8:3 When I look upon Your heavens, the work of Your fingers: the moon and the stars which You have fixed; Psa 8:4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? Psa 8:5 For You have made him lack a little from God; and have crowned him with glory and honor. Psa 8:6 You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all under his feet: Psa 8:7 all flocks and oxen, and also the animals of the field, Psa 8:8 the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, all that pass through the sea. Psa 8:9 O Jehovah, our Lord, how majestic is Your name in all the earth!
Yes this is true, Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant and that national Israel has forfeited its place as a holy nation and priesthood of the world for rejecting Christ. It is also true that observance of the ten commandment do not save us, but do not kid yourself saying that the very the ten commandment, written with the finger of God are now null and void. it seems like like a hyperbole but is it it ever right to murder? To steal? To bear false witness? To have a god before our God? why is it we stop at commandment 4?it is not ceremonial, it is not civil it is an act of remember who we are where we came from and who put us here. besides the apostle Paul state that Israel stumbled and fell because they did not pursue the will of god in faith. it is by grace we are saved and through that grace and because we love Jesus we obey him.
God Bless.
__________________ John 8:58 verily I say unto you before Abraham was I AM.
Jude 24 now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy
Legalism is a heart attitude- God calls for a loving obedience to him and his word.
Read Genesis. The teachings of the OT was for the old covenant people. Isreal. We are the new covenant people. The very Body of Christ. Isreal needs to come to Christ in order to be saved. There is no other way. The law and its ordinances was nailed to the cross. 
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