You do realise that in many traditional and old Christian churches; you are considered a Heretic!
So you really have to consider that fact and that you may be on a wrong footing with God.
The early biblical church said exactly what Clirus is saying.
Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Jesus said:
Mat 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
Mat 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Clearly, Christ agrees with believers keeping themselves separate from sin and unrepentant sinners, even to the extent of ostracizing them.
__________________
Just a thought,
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Johan
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The early biblical church said exactly what Clirus is saying.
Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Jesus said:
Mat 18:15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
Mat 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Clearly, Christ agrees with believers keeping themselves separate from sin and unrepentant sinners, even to the extent of ostracizing them.
Huge difference: Not having ayting to do with deeds of darkness and not having anything to do with sinners. Besides the verse you quoted concerns itself with unrepentent believers. Besides there's Matthew 13: The Parable of the Weeds
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
plus the example of Christ's life and the lives of the Apostles. Did they shun sinners? No. Jesus and the apostles did not shun sinners, but spoke to them and even partied with them.
Your position needs revising if you really think we're supposed to keep to ourselves.Have you forgotten even the Great Commission?
__________________
Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Matthew 6:24
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible
Originally Posted by Faith Guardian
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When I heard a fellow Christian say "We must bomb our enemies!" I asked myself: What would Jesus do? Would Jesus torture? Would Jesus bomb or wage war? No. He loves us all, and came to give life, love, hope and salvation. Not hatred, death and damnation. Jesus called us to be His servants on earth, to follow Him in His loving and caring ways. To love when all others hate. Can we as Christians claim both to serve Him and to support torture and war? I think there is too large a gap for this to be possible. If we love and serve Jesus, we love and serve our fellow man. Including our enemies.
I firmly believe we cannot both serve Jesus and war, strife and hatred. We must choose. I choose Jesus, and I choose love.
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I have considered that "possibility", but I am comfortable in my relation with the Lord.
Actually, I believe I represent the traditional and old Christian church thinking.
I believe it is the contemporary church that has failed to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible that is the problem.
So, now the "Contemporary Church" is on Clirus' list . . . to add to all the Democrats, Atheistic Liberal Media, Universal Healthcare, President Obama (though he's twice as bad because he's a Democrat as well!), Socialists, etc.
Seems this thread has more side roads than people to drive on them
Huge difference: Not having ayting to do with deeds of darkness and not having anything to do with sinners.
Who said not to have anything to do with sinners?
Besides the verse you quoted concerns itself with unrepentent believers.
Yes I know, that was the point.
Besides there's Matthew 13: The Parable of the Weeds
24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
plus the example of Christ's life and the lives of the Apostles. Did they shun sinners? No. Jesus and the apostles did not shun sinners, but spoke to them and even partied with them.
Do you think when Jesus ate and drank with sinners that he didn't call them to repentance? Who said shun the sinners? And what context are you putting the parable of the weeds in? Should we be comfortable with sin? Should we let the weeds affect our growth?
Your position needs revising if you really think we're supposed to keep to ourselves.Have you forgotten even the Great Commission?
Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Mat 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
Mat 10:15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
Mat 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Clirus presented the issue as it would be better for society to operate the way the church is told to, than to simply accept sin as it is. I didn't think either of us were saying Christians should keep to themselves, but we certainly shouldn't just do as the Romans do. And it would be better for society to rebuke or ultimately exclude unrepentant sinners, it's just not going to happen. Society, of course, is not the church.
I take sinner to mean someone whose lifestyle is sinful. If it meant anyone who ever has or at least occasionally does sin, the term might as well be 'human being'. It should not be said that a saint, a member of God's flock, is a sinner. Compassion is good, but also dangerous. Any time we try to help someone out of sin, we run the risk of giving in to temptation ourselves, whether that someone is a believer or an unbeliever.
The prevalent attitude of Christianity today seems to be that God is OK with sin as long as you have Jesus (almost as bad as the lie that simply going to church will grant you salvation). But if you don't have a new relationship with sin, you don't have a new relationship with God. I think modern Christianity tries to hard not to step on any toes when spreading the gospel, and because of that the gospel suffers.
__________________
Just a thought,
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Johan
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plus the example of Christ's life and the lives of the Apostles. Did they shun sinners? No. Jesus and the apostles did not shun sinners, but spoke to them and even partied with them.
Response
Matthew 28:19-20 states, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."
In the great commission, I see teaching and baptizing, but I do not see partying.
Christians have about 70 years on earth, so there is no way to avoid being with sinners. When Jesus was with sinners, I believe he was teaching, not partying. I also do not believe Jesus had communion with the sinners. II Corinthians 6:14 states, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
I do not believe Christians should be disrespectful unless sinners are flaunting their sinfulness as in pornography, adultery and homosexual activity. A person that calls themselves an Atheist is flaunting their sinfulness (violation of first commandment).
I would not go trough a persons garbage, shout at a person at an abortion clinic, but then I would vote against a person because they advocated or condoned abortion, pornography, or homosexuality.
PS I might write a letter to the editor, the Christianforums, etc. and state what I believe the Bible says.
Clirus presented the issue as it would be better for society to operate the way the church is told to, than to simply accept sin as it is. I didn't think either of us were saying Christians should keep to themselves, but we certainly shouldn't just do as the Romans do. And it would be better for society to rebuke or ultimately exclude unrepentant sinners, it's just not going to happen. Society, of course, is not the church.
I take sinner to mean someone whose lifestyle is sinful. If it meant anyone who ever has or at least occasionally does sin, the term might as well be 'human being'. It should not be said that a saint, a member of God's flock, is a sinner. Compassion is good, but also dangerous. Any time we try to help someone out of sin, we run the risk of giving in to temptation ourselves, whether that someone is a believer or an unbeliever.
The prevalent attitude of Christianity today seems to be that God is OK with sin as long as you have Jesus (almost as bad as the lie that simply going to church will grant you salvation). But if you don't have a new relationship with sin, you don't have a new relationship with God. I think modern Christianity tries to hard not to step on any toes when spreading the gospel, and because of that the gospel suffers.
Amen, Amen and Amen
A part of the prevalent attitude is the John Edwards approach of "I would not do that, but I would not mind others doing it".
Hmmm -- this thread's been going on for a while, and still no reference to any actual impeachable offenses.
All those not surprised, raise your hand.
__________________
Don't talk like one of them. You're not! Even if you'd like to be.
To them, you're just a freak, like me! They need you right now, but when they don't, they'll cast you out, like a leper! You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other.
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See, I'm not a monster. I'm just ahead of the curve.
__________________ caro est interficio , sapor , sapor interficio
So much has been said and sung of beautiful young girls,
why don't somebody wake up to the beauty of old women?
-Harriet Beecher Stowe
To hold the same views at forty as we held at twenty is to have been stupefied for a score of years and to take rank, not as a prophet, but as an unteachable brat, well birched and none the wiser.
- Robert Louis Stevenson
The main doctrine of a fanatic's creed is that his enemies are enemies of God.
-Andrew White
We've all been conditioned to think of love as the heart-pounding,
breathless passion of the young -- not the complex feelings shared by two
time-ravaged people who spend afternoons holding hands, as a defense against
loneliness, disease and death.
-Kate Zernike
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