Socialism and atheism? The two are not synonymous. No more than capitalism and satanism is. Though there are some similarities there, namely the rights of the strong and the lack of rights for the weak.
Oh, and as I have pointed out - the first Christians were communists. So I am at a loss as to why you think socialism and atheism both synonymous when close to two thousand years ago there were some people who lived in communistic societies, the Christians. Who also, because of this loving behaviour were dubbed "little Christs". But I guess you're right. Love has been tried, measured and found want. Bombs and guns are so much better. Especially if you throw in some torture and the like as well.
The first Christians got into communism, but the later books of the Bible show they found that communism does not work even for Christians. Socialism/Communism does not work because there will always be people that are lazy and will not do their fair share of the work. This discourages the rest and so the whole thing fails. Capitalism creates unequal prosperity, and Socialism creates equal poverty.
Does it? Are you sure? Also, where does the bible say that communism turned out to be a bad idea?
If socialism does not work for the reasons you stated, why is Scandinavia prospering so much then? We're socialistic democracies with universal health care and loads of benefits you would claim makes us lazy. Only, we're not lazy. We're hard working, and prospering. So since it seems that your analysis does not hold water. We see from experience that socialism does not cause this rampant laziness and consequent collapse you describe. If it did, we would be poor. Right?
Originally Posted by clirus
Originally Posted by faith guardian
Well, with all due respect I doubt you know what socialism is. Once capitalism gained a hold in eastern Europe porn, prostitution and fornication all went through the roof.
Porn, prostitution and fornication all went through the roof in Europe, because the influence of Christianity had become so weak that it could not control the evil influence of Capitalism. Capitalism is evil but Christianity can control Capitalism.
So we agree that capitalism is evil. Great! Now, it seems our difference of opinion is that you think Christianity can control an evil and use it for good, whereas I think we should separate ourselves from that evil and seek the embodiment of Christ in politics as well as every other area of life. I.E. that we should seek a political system that helps the poor, the weak and the unfortunate, and restricts and limits the influence and destructive potential of the rich and powerful.
As for porn, many Christian conservatives in the US say what you did, that Europe is so atheistic and separate from God because of the liberalism we have, that this leads to evil. Such as porn and prostitution. However, I seem to recall that not only is the porn industry bigger and more thriving in the US, but also that it's the conservatives in the US who consume the most.
Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ef=online-news
Also, in relation to voting for Obama, it seems that the least porn-consuming states were the ones voting for him: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Bus...6977202&page=1
Also, if we look at statistics: http://www.internet-filter-review.to...tatistics.html
we find that the US is a big consumer, and the biggestproducer of porn worldwide.
Take look at this graph for instance:
which shows how large a percentage of the world's porn sites belong to which country.
Now, by your logic, Europe should produce and consume more porn. Also, the least consuming users should be conservatives, however, the reverse seems to be true.
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Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 15th March 2009 at 05:44 PM.
If socialism does not work for the reasons you stated, why is Scandinavia prospering so much then? We're socialistic democracies with universal health care and loads of benefits you would claim makes us lazy. Only, we're not lazy. We're hard working, and prospering. So since it seems, at least in Scandinavia, that your analysis does not hold water that socialism may not encourage laziness and collapse. If it did, we would be poor. Right?
Response
I will admit that I know little about Scandinavia because it is never in the news. I hear you say everything is great, but I recently saw a PBS show about Universal Health Care in other countries and the key things I heard were price controls and limited expectations.
Please tell me how Scandinavia prevents sponges from soaking up all the health care/welfare funds and keeps the sponges from becoming a larger and larger fraction of the population.
What services do you offer to alcoholics, drug addicts homosexuals, illegitimate children?
faith guardian quote
So we agree that capitalism is evil. Great! Now, it seems our difference of opinion is that you think Christianity can control an evil and use it for good, whereas I think we should separate ourselves from that evil and seek the embodiment of Christ in politics as well as every other area of life. I.E. that we should seek a political system that helps the poor, the weak and the unfortunate, and restricts and limits the influence and destructive potential of the rich and powerful.
Response
Yes we agree that capitalism is evil, but I believe Socialism is worse than Capitalism.
Should a political system that is the embodiment of Christ provide health care/welfare for those poor, weak and unfortunate that have that condition because they violated Christian Principles and have sinned against God?
We also agree that America has many problems, but electing democrats that support pornography, abortion and homosexuality is not the solution.
The porn industry started in Denmark in the sixties. Are you mad that America stole that very profitable industry from Scandinavia? I am certainly trying to give it back to Scandinavia.
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What services do you offer to alcoholics, drug addicts homosexuals, illegitimate children?
Yes, because illegitimate children are clearly just sponges on society. If they want things like antibiotics or chemotherapy, let the little bastar ds get a job in a coal mine or sweeping out industrial chimneys or some such!
If socialism does not work for the reasons you stated, why is Scandinavia prospering so much then? We're socialistic democracies with universal health care and loads of benefits you would claim makes us lazy. Only, we're not lazy. We're hard working, and prospering. So since it seems, at least in Scandinavia, that your analysis does not hold water that socialism may not encourage laziness and collapse. If it did, we would be poor. Right?
Response
I will admit that I know little about Scandinavia because it is never in the news. I hear you say everything is great, but I recently saw a PBS show about Universal Health Care in other countries and the key things I heard were price controls and limited expectations.
Let me guess, it was made by Americans, and my guess is members of the republican party. I have seen such claims before. And they don't really match up to my experiences here. You know, per capita we pay much less for better healthcare services than you do. As for price controls, do you mean "oh noes, the government is keeping the prices from going rampant!!"? If so, then yes. There is - as far as I know - certain limitations on it. Don't worry though, doctors make a lot of money here. And they do not have to pay as much for insurance as yours do either.
Originally Posted by clirus
Please tell me how Scandinavia prevents sponges from soaking up all the health care/welfare funds and keeps the sponges from becoming a larger and larger fraction of the population.
Well, some people do leech. And we do use some resources on stopping them. But they are fairly few, and they exist in all societies. Even so, our government uses less than yours on health care. Which does indicate that the system works. As for what it is like here, this video does offer a glimpse of what our philosophy is. And while I understand this may seem impossibly hard to grasp, it's still true. I'll swear to that:
What services do you offer to alcoholics, drug addicts homosexuals, illegitimate children?
Illegitimate children Clirus? So, you don't want abortion. But you don't want to help illegitimate children either. That's not hyporcitical at all.
You offer those people love. A way to get out of their addictions, and for the children, you give them everything that other children get. Healthcare, rights, education.
Originally Posted by clirus
Originally Posted by faith guardian
So we agree that capitalism is evil. Great! Now, it seems our difference of opinion is that you think Christianity can control an evil and use it for good, whereas I think we should separate ourselves from that evil and seek the embodiment of Christ in politics as well as every other area of life. I.E. that we should seek a political system that helps the poor, the weak and the unfortunate, and restricts and limits the influence and destructive potential of the rich and powerful.
Response
Yes we agree that capitalism is evil, but I believe Socialism is worse than Capitalism.
Why? Can you provide any good reasons for it, or not? I mean, I have given you proof of a lot of things.
A: We consume less porn.
B:We produce less porn
C: We have more freedoms
D: We have less crime
E: We have less social gaps
F: We have more money (per capita)
G: We have better health
H: Unlike you we have no illiteracy....
and of course I: We have fewer abortions (per capita).
and you seem to disregard these things because you feel like you yourselves are right, even when the evidence points the other way. So I am enclined to likening your USA with pharisees in that you claim a moral superiority you do not have.
I know you think socialism does not work, and I know the reasons why you think so. You'll even find a lot of press from several decades back - and now - fom the right wing in the US making claims about how Scandinavia is all ready to fall from the terrible terrible effects of socialism. Only, it has not happened. In fact, the opposite has happened. We have grown. Even during financial downturns elsewhere our socialistic approach has ensured a smaller blow than most others have felt.
So I ask you, could it be that you are influenced by the atheistic and quite violent alleged "communists" like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and the like, and transfer your distaste for what they did onto socialism at large? Yes, those people were terrible. But what they did cannot be equated with socialism.
Originally Posted by clirus
Should a political system that is the embodiment of Christ provide health care/welfare for those poor, weak and unfortunate that have that condition because they violated Christian Principles and have sinned against God?
The answer to that would be a resounding YES! It's what Jesus would have done, and what He commanded us to do. You now, love your enemy, do good to those who persecute you, do to others as you would have them do to you... All that jazz. Personally, that is what I consider the very core of Christianity. As for illegitimate children, they are not at fault. And should not be penalized for any sin their parents may have committed. Jeremiah 31:29-32 (New International Version) says:
29 "In those days people will no longer say,
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'
30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge.
So we should not penalize them for that. But rather show them love.
Originally Posted by clirus
We also agree that America has many problems, but electing democrats that support pornography, abortion and homosexuality is not the solution.
Did you even read my post Clirus? It states, and proves, that American conservatives are the main consumers. And that the states who voted for Obama were the ones who consumed the least porn in the US. Also, what do you intend to do when over 10% of your women who have abortions have them because they cannot afford to have the child? Will you do something about that, or will you value your money higher than those lives?
Originally Posted by clirus
The porn industry started in Denmark in the sixties. Are you mad that America stole that very profitable industry from Scandinavia? I am certainly trying to give it back to Scandinavia.
You have made that claim before I think. But you haven't provided any evidence for it. In fact, I think it is a ludicrous claim, Clirus. Porn has been around for millennia. And it i obvious some people made money on it back in Pompeii's days. That much is evident from archeological findings.
You say you want to give it back to Scandinavia, which is a fallacious claim. We cannot have it back because we never gave it to you in the first place.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Last edited by faith guardian; 16th March 2009 at 06:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by faith guardian
Why? Can you provide any good reasons for it, or not? I mean, I have given you proof of a lot of things.
A: We consume less porn.
B:We produce less porn
C: We have more freedoms
D: We have less crime
E: We have less social gaps
F: We have more money (per capita)
G: We have better health
H: Unlike you we have no illiteracy....
and of course I: We have fewer abortions (per capita).
and you seem to disregard these things because you feel like you yourselves are right, even when the evidence points the other way. So I am enclined to likening your USA with pharisees in that you claim a moral superiority you do not have.
All that sounds really sweet, but lets just remember that as soon as our Mary takes control of things, you officially become part of Tasmania... So lets just go easy on claiming "Scandinavian" superiority, as you are about to become Australians.
I will admit that I know little about Scandinavia because it is never in the news. I hear you say everything is great, but I recently saw a PBS show about Universal Health Care in other countries and the key things I heard were price controls and limited expectations.
Wait a minute... You get your news from the Atheistic Liberal News Media and Entertainment Industry! That is a shock.
Please tell me how Scandinavia prevents sponges from soaking up all the health care/welfare funds and keeps the sponges from becoming a larger and larger fraction of the population.
What services do you offer to alcoholics, drug addicts homosexuals, illegitimate children?
Australia's universal healthcare system is relatively good also. As is the Commonwealth Supported Tertiary Places.
Should a political system that is the embodiment of Christ provide health care/welfare for those poor, weak and unfortunate that have that condition because they violated Christian Principles and have sinned against God?
Firstly, no political system is the embodiment of Christ. Jesus specifically states that His Kingdom is not of this world, so the point is moot.
Secondly, have you any proof at all that those who can afford the best quality healthcare use it not because their condition is a result of the violation of Christian principles?
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Note: J.R.R. Tolkien once said, "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us." At the present time I'm pre-occupied with other more urgent issues that demand my full attention, and so I'll be off CF for several months. Wishing you well, Mithrandir.
All that sounds really sweet, but lets just remember that as soon as our Mary takes control of things, you officially become part of Tasmania... So lets just go easy on claiming "Scandinavian" superiority, as you are about to become Australians.
Ooooh! Oooh! Does that mean I can get a didgeridoo and go hunting kangaroos? YAYYYYYYY!!!!
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Originally Posted by Martin Luther King Jr.
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Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.
"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
__________________ Poverty is not only low income and no assets. It is a condition of exclusion from the institutions and organizations of modern life. In many countries law courts, banks, education, health services, roads, water, electricity, even respect, are not available to the poor.
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Well, some people do leech. And we do use some resources on stopping them. But they are fairly few, and they exist in all societies. Even so, our government uses less than yours on health care. Which does indicate that the system works. As for what it is like here, this video does offer a glimpse of what our philosophy is. And while I understand this may seem impossibly hard to grasp, it's still true. I'll swear to that:
Response
After seeing the video showing all the welfare benefits of Norway, my first thought was how come Norway does not have a problem similar to the illegal Mexicans in America.
Then I found the following article.
Since the words "asylum seekers", is used instead of immigrants, I assume Norway does not allow immigration.
And even the number of asylum seekers is being reduced.
Socialism is a workable system in a closed society where there are vast natural resources. But, can you keep the society closed and what happens if the price of the natural resources goes down or the natural resources run out.
I will admit that the Norway Nuclear Power Policy is good. Norway must have figured out a way to prevent the immigration of environmentalists into Norway.
"It is necessary to take measures to decrease the numbers of asylum seekers without a need for protection," says Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg.
9/5/2008 :: Norway has, next to the Netherlands, experienced the largest increase in the arrivals of asylum seekers in Europe in 2008. So far this year more than twice as many asylum seekers has arrived compared to the same period of last year. 60 per cent of the applications for asylum are rejected. In 2007 Norway received 6 500 asylum seekers and this year around 15 000 arrivals are expected. The main reason for the increase are developments in the home countries of the asylum seekers. How the Norwegian asylum policy is perceived, especially in comparison with comparable countries like Sweden, may also explain the distribution of asylum seekers to various European countries.
The Government is concerned with protecting the right of asylum for refugees, and with the rapid inclusion of those granted protection into the Norwegian society.
"It is therefore necessary to take measures to decrease the number of arriving asylum seekers who do not meet the conditions for protection," says Minister of Labour and Social Inclusion Dag Terje Andersen.
That is a shock.
YAYYYYYYY!!!! 
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