Here's the reason I disagree with you on all counts.
HaShem is the G~d of,Avraham, Yistzchok and Yaakov which means He is MY G~d too. But according to Em and others, those who also believe in Yeshua are not entitled to Him. I too know Him from the Hebrew Bible and He is MY Hebrew G~d. And there are others on this forum (posters and lurkers) who also have just as much qualifications and an Orthodox. Em has qualifications as does Contra as does Ch. Mom ... Would love to hash this out more but gotta go for awhile.
lehitra'ot
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You are the light of the world ~ let your light shine before all men
That they may see your deeds and glorify your Father in heaven
The lamp is the mitzvah
The light it shines is the Torah
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You make a lot of sense. Both of the quotes I gave you so far came from the Chumash, the 1st 5 Books of Moses, dictated by G-d to Moses 1300 years before Jesus Christ is supposed to have been born. So you can see that the G-d of Avraham and Yitzchok and Yaakov, the G-d of the Jews, was loving, forgiving, compassionate and gentle long before Christianity showed up. I am going to give you one more quote;" "All of B'nai Israel [Jews] and the Righteous of the Nations [gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]." One of the things that Christianity claims is that the Law of G-d>the Torah<kills and that Judaism was not an effective method of 'salvation'>getting into Heaven. However, long before Christainity showed up, we had the promise I have just quoted you from G-d that Torah and G-d's compassion was already an effective system for 'salvation'>getting into Heaven<for both Jew and gentile. Based on the 3 quotes I have given you, you can see that long before Christianity showed up, 1300 years, in fact, we had a G-d a/ who was loving and forgving, b/ that cared for all of Mankind and c/ that had an effective method of 'salvation'>getting into Heaven. So, for a Jew, the pragmatic question is: What does Jesus Christ do? He doesn't bring any more love and forgivness, he doesn't increase the number of people who have a portion in Olama Habah [in fact, he decreases it] and he is not necessary for 'salvation'>getting into Heaven. So, since he does not do anything, we reject the Christian claim that he does.
Originally Posted by Kris10leigh
I'm trying to be discerning. You have no idea how hard at the moment. I've actually invited our minister over to dinner this weekend because I have a lot of questions and I trust him to lead me in the right direction.
As far as there being one God, yes, I know that. No Christian who says "The God of the old" and the "God of the New" means it literally. It's more of a way of expressing that God seems angry in the Old Testament and loving in the new. In my narrow way of thinking, I always thought that Christians found God because of Yeshua, like they couldn't understand God until Yeshua brought love and forgiveness into the mix. It made me wonder how Jews viewed God since their basis of understanding stems only from the OT.
I hope I'm making sense.
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Last edited by emesshalom; 26th February 2009 at 07:03 PM.
[/color][/size][/font] You've got to be kidding me! And I suppose you are the right man for the job eh em?[/[/size][/color][/font]quote]
Why would he be kidding you? What he says is logical- if you want to
know about the Hebrew Bible, the Hebrew G-d, you go ask an
observant Jew. Why would someone ask a non-Jew, or a non-observant
Jew, about such matters?
And yes, Emess is the right man for the job.
Thank you, that is very kind of you, but no, I don't think I am the right man for the job nor do I think that CF is the right place for the job. All of us who are the Observant Jewish Community on CF will do the best we can. And we will continue to do it to the best of our abilities. But for real, for real, unless you can see, taste, hear, smell, feel how G-d's Mitzvahs work themselves out in a real Torah True Jewish Community, in real time, you are just getting a shadow of reality, not the reality, itself. Reality requires real face to face interaction over an extended period of time, with a real Orthodox Rabbi in a real Observant Jewish Community. True authentic Judaism is just as much in the Challah as in the Chumash. I wish you well, I promise you that all of the Orthodox Jews on CF will only tell you the truth, as the best we can. Baruach HaShem, kivi
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Last edited by emesshalom; 27th February 2009 at 01:27 AM.
Jews already had the 'moment of truth' that Anisavta tries to talk about concerning Jesus Christ. We had it long before Jesus Christ is supposed to have lived and it is recorded in the Book of Esther. G-d had punished us for our bad behavior and sent us into exile in Babylon/Persia. We were very worried that He was so angry with us that He had given up on us, totally rejected us, in effect, divorced us. IN fact, some of us were in such total dispair that we wanted to stop being Jewish and were willing participated in the wedding feast of the Persian king. That lead to Haman and then to the decree that every man, woman and child of the Jews should be killed. And that lead to the Jews, through Mordechai, doing repentence and G-d's responding forgiveness and a total spiritual re-invigoration of the Jews and triumph over our enemies. We have often been to spiritual and physical depths in our history even deeper than the Holocaust and G-d was there with us. We know that no matter what happens, He is there for us and will support us in our being obedient to Him and His Will.
Originally Posted by anisavta
Yes you are.
When the scripture is broken down like Em did (which that part of his post was good and profitable) it shows just how loving and forgiving G~d is.
We look at it through our Western Culture peace at all costs eyes and G~d looks very harsh in the Old Testament. But the culture viewed G~d much different than we do. Culture was very harsh back then.
Let me see if I can put this into thought that makes sense. I'm kinda thinking out loud here.
Yeshua came and showed us what the heart of G~d was (from the very beginning). Like a parent who comes into a room of kids who are having at it over the toys cause they just don't know how to get along (even though they were just given the pep talk about sharing before the play date). Parent comes in and sits down with the kids and says, "here try this, do this, give this to Johnny... Susan give that to Billy." Now all the kids are playing nicely together because they had someone show them.
Back when Yeshua walked on the earth everyone needed the hands on approach to G~d.
Does that make sense?
I applaud you for talking to your pastor. We all get confused about it all from time to time and no one no matter how much they think they know - knows it all. Once we get one thing down, HaShem shows us another aspect of His Character so we can continue to grow closer to Him and we have to work it out. That's what it means by the scripture, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling".
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Last edited by emesshalom; 27th February 2009 at 01:29 AM.
Kris - He's the same G~d. Yes there are people and religious groups who separate G~d of the Old Testament from G~d of the New Testament. But Yeshua said it Himself - if you know the Son you know the Father. Those who know Yeshua understand HaShem's mercy and love and compassion and grace and forgiveness. Em is giving you a very biased view and once again lumping all those who are "Christians" into one box. It is not a Jewish (good) view vrs Christian (bad) view. Be discerning.
Of course, G-d is G-d of everything, He is G-d of Christians and Muslims and Buddists and Hindus and Taoist and Shintoists and Shamanists and Animalists [I know I have left out a lot of religions but only for the problem of space and time, not importance] and atheists and agnostics and Jews and everybody. Having said that, Judaism is a religion with very clear boundaries. One of those boundaries is that the Messiah has not come. Therefore, for a Jew, it impossible for the G-d of Avraham and Yitzchok and Yaakov to also be the God of Jesus Christ because all of the attributes, especially Messiah-hood, that Christianity puts on Jesus Christ, Judaism rejects. So while anisavta believes what she believes, the truth on the ground is that no Messianic organization is part of any organization or coalition of organizations recognized by any Jewish organization, non-denominal [like a Zionist organization or a local Jewish Community Center which might have both a Reform and a Orthodox pre-school in it], Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionists and Orthodox. And, no matter what anisavta says, this is, unfortunately, a Christian vs Jewish thingee. The Chirstian thingee is pretty much you have to be Christian to know G-d's love and compassion and mercy. And if you are not, you're out of it, forever. The Jewish thing is that all humans of any spiritual background, as long as it fits into the 7 Noachide Commandments [and Islam and Christianity do], can know G-d's mercy and compassion and love. And if the person belong to a non-Noachide religion, there is still hope in the next go around, G-d never gives up trying, never.
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But for real, for real, unless you can see, taste, hear, smell, feel how G-d's Mitzvahs work themselves out in a real Torah True Jewish Community, in real time, you are just getting a shadow of reality, not reality, itself. Reality requires real face to face time, over an extended period of time, with a real Orthodox Rabbi in a real Observant Jewish Community.
Of course this is all true....but some people do not have the option to do so.
For them, they rely upon forums such as these, and yes you are "the right
man" for the job here
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You make a lot of sense. Both of the quotes I gave you so far came from the Chumash, the 1st 5 Books of Moses, dictated by G-d to Moses 1300 years before Jesus Christ is supposed to have been born. So you can see that the G-d of Avraham and Yitzchok and Yaakov, the G-d of the Jews, was loving, forgiving, compassionate and gentle long before Christianity showed up. I am going to give you one more quote;" "All of B'nai Israel [Jews] and the Righteous of the Nations [gentiles] have a portion in Olam Habah [the World to Come]." One of the things that Christianity claims is that the Law of G-d>the Torah<kills and that Judaism was not an effective method of 'salvation'>getting into Heaven. However, long before Christainity showed up, we had the promise I have just quoted you from G-d that Torah and G-d's compassion was already an effective system for 'salvation'>getting into Heaven<for both Jew and gentile. Based on the 3 quotes I have given you, you can see that long before Christianity showed up, 1300 years, in fact, we had a G-d a/ who was loving and forgving, b/ that cared for all of Mankind and c/ that had an effective method of 'salvation'>getting into Heaven. So, for a Jew, the pragmatic question is: What does Jesus Christ do? He doesn't bring any more love and forgivness, he doesn't increase the number of people who have a portion in Olama Habah [in fact, he decreases it] and he is not necessary for 'salvation'>getting into Heaven. So, since he does not do anything, we reject the Christian claim that he does.
Before Avraham was - Yeshua is.
John 8-
53.
Avraham avinu died; you aren't greater than he, are you? And the prophets also died. Who do you think you are?"
54.
Yeshua answered, "If I praise myself, my praise counts for nothing. The One who is praising me is my Father, the very one about whom you keep saying, `He is our God.'
55.
Now you have not known him, but I do know him; indeed, if I were to say that I don't know him, I would be a liar like you! But I do know him, and I obey his word.
56.
Avraham, your father, was glad that he would see my day; then he saw it and was overjoyed."
57.
"Why, you're not yet fifty years old," the Judeans replied, "and you have seen Avraham?"
58.
Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"
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You are the light of the world ~ let your light shine before all men
That they may see your deeds and glorify your Father in heaven
The lamp is the mitzvah
The light it shines is the Torah
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Nobody is agruing that what you quoted from John is standard Christian belief and that you are presenting pretty standard Christian theology. The Jews on CF are just trying to be clear when talking with Kris that John is not part of Jewish scripture and that the Messianic movement in Christianity is Christian and not Jewish. So quoting John, which is Christian, really does not answer Kris's question which concerned itself with the Jewish understanding of the matter.
Originally Posted by anisavta
Before Avraham was - Yeshua is.
John 8-
53.
Avraham avinu died; you aren't greater than he, are you? And the prophets also died. Who do you think you are?"
54.
Yeshua answered, "If I praise myself, my praise counts for nothing. The One who is praising me is my Father, the very one about whom you keep saying, `He is our God.'
55.
Now you have not known him, but I do know him; indeed, if I were to say that I don't know him, I would be a liar like you! But I do know him, and I obey his word.
56.
Avraham, your father, was glad that he would see my day; then he saw it and was overjoyed."
57.
"Why, you're not yet fifty years old," the Judeans replied, "and you have seen Avraham?"
58.
Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed! Before Avraham came into being, I AM!"
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That would be me. Not a Jew in a 60 mile radius, that I know of.
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