Saying "God did it" does not tell you anything. What you have to specify is how God did it.
Not if we are talking about the snake God miraculously created, which is what I was talking about. If it was a miraculous creation (it was) then it is not possible for us to scientifically know how God did it. We simply have to accept that God did it.
The argument between creationism and evolution isn't really about whether God did it. Darwin thought God did. The argument is about how God did it. Did God create according to a particular human interpretation of Genesis 1-8 or did God create according to the method revealed in His Creation? EVOLUTION IS NOT ATHEISM!
My point had nothing to do with the creationism/evolution argument.My point was that not everything we observe has a scientific explanation, such as a dead man rising up out of his grave after three days and flying off into the clouds. Despite the benefits of science it has its limits. And if we rely too heavily on it it can be misleading.
As has been pointed out, we have not "seen" this. The story dates to long before you and I were born. You and I trust that the accounts were accurate. We believe this.
You speak of Christian faith as if there is room for doubt. There isn’t.
“Seen”, “Trust”, “Believe” = Faith. My point was that we ‘saw’ the snake through the eyes of faith, not with our physical eyes.
But we do not know this.
Speak for yourself.
Christian faith knows. It knows because of the written word of God in scripture and the living Word of God in our hearts. So by faith I do know because it is written.
You think that, if I were to see the snake out of context, it would look like every other adult snake. But is that so? Does it have to look like every other adult snake or can there be signs that it really was miraculously created 5 minutes ago? It turns out there can be signs of its miraculous creation. For instance, an adult snake would have signs of remodeling in its bones. This snake would not have to have such signs. All the osteons would be intact and there would be no half osteons as the remodeling process removed half of an osteon to replace it with new bone.
Is this where I’m supposed to laugh? Did I miss the joke?
See if you can apply this same argument to the dead man who rose up out of his grave after three days and flew off into the clouds.
This brings us to a grave theological issue: is God a deceiver? You seem to be arguing "yes".
Please don’t make a mess of my argument. If you missed my point you can simply ask for clarification. I would be happy to give it.
You are saying that God would make the snake look like every other adult snake and, thus, seem old. But God is not compelled to do that. He can make the snake such that it reflects its recent creation in this form.
You mean like a snake that is 3 to 5 minutes old. How exactly would that look?
And how exactly would this benefit the Hebrews among whom this miracle was performed as a sign of God’s limitless power in addition to His turning water into blood?
Your argument is irrelevant.
I suggest you look up the history of "Oomphalos" and the religious objections to it.
I don’t see its relevance to my post so I won’t bother.
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It takes more faith to believe the universe happened by chance than to believe it happened by God.- Doveaman
We have 'seen' no such thing. What we have done is read where someone wrote an account of god turning Moses staff into a snake. Two very different things, I'm sure you'll agree.
I do not agree.
There is more than one way to 'see'. I was also crucified with Christ two thousand years ago. I was buried with him and raised to life with him. I am now seated with Christ in heaven at this present time. I am also present on the sabbath day of creation week.
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It takes more faith to believe the universe happened by chance than to believe it happened by God.- Doveaman
Last edited by Doveaman; 4th November 2009 at 06:56 PM.
There is more than one way to 'see'. I was also crucified with Christ two thousand years ago. I was buried with him and raised to life with him. I am now seated with Christ in heaven at this present time. I am also present on the sabbath day of creation week.
Wait... what?
__________________ "We can easily forgive a child that is afraid of the dark, the real tragedy is when people are afraid of the light"
-Plato
Oh come on. He didn't mean that literaly (as in the physical sense of it all)
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Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim:
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"no man can serve two masters; ye cannot serve both God and mammon." - Bible (Matthew 6:24)
Not if we are talking about the snake God miraculously created, which is what I was talking about. If it was a miraculous creation (it was) then it is not possible for us to scientifically know how God did it.
Now you are moving the goalposts. You are saying "scientifically how God did it". What makes that story outside if science is not the mechanism, but other things. The story says that God made the staff into a snake. That is how God did it! God transformed a staff into a snake. We do not need to know the details of the transformation to have a general "how".
Miracle is a how. Think about that. Miracle is a mechanism or a "how". When you say "God did it", you have a mechanism: miracle. Instantaneous appearance or, in this case, instantaneous transformation of staff to snake or perhaps instantaneous replacement of staff with snake.
My point had nothing to do with the creationism/evolution argument.My point was that not everything we observe has a scientific explanation, such as a dead man rising up out of his grave after three days and flying off into the clouds. Despite the benefits of science it has its limits.
I agree that science is a limited form of knowing. But the problem here is that creationism is a scientific theory. It is a very testable "how" that God created. And, as a scientific theory, it can be falsified like any scientific theory. Can be falsified, and has been falsified.
And if we rely too heavily on it it can be misleading.
Science itself is not misleading. I would say that people that misuse science outside its legitmate boundaries -- like Dawkings or PZ Meyers -- and try have science make metaphysical conclusions science can't make, are misleading.
You speak of Christian faith as if there is room for doubt. There isn’t.
Of course there is room for doubt in Christian faith. Jesus expressed doubt in both the Garden of Gethsemane and on the Cross. "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" That is doubt. Very severe and anguished doubt.
“Seen”, “Trust”, “Believe” = Faith. My point was that we ‘saw’ the snake through the eyes of faith, not with our physical eyes.
We have not seen the snake. We trust that the accounts are accurate. There is no "eyes of faith". Instead, there is evidence that we trust is accurate, or that we have that not everyone has, that provides the basis for faith.
Evidence first, then faith. Not faith then evidence.
Christian faith knows. It knows because of the written word of God in scripture and the living Word of God in our hearts.
This is Fundamentalism, not Christianity. Christian faith "knows" because of the evidence of a personal relationship with God and the risen Christ. Scripture helps us get to that personal relationship.
Is this where I’m supposed to laugh? Did I miss the joke?
No. You are supposed to realize that the limitation of science in this case is not the miraculous nature of the snake's origins. If we had the snake right after the transformation of staff to snake, then we could tell that snake originated by miracle.
What you are trying to do is deny that science can study any miracle. That is not true. The limitation of science is not the miracle, but whether the miracle leaves any evidence we can study today.
The Resurrection left no evidence we can study today. Altho, please note, there are those who think the Shroud of Turin is such evidence. If the Shroud were genuine, then the scientific study of the Shroud would provide supporting evidence for the Resurrection.
So, saying "miracle" does not automatically exclude scientific study. If the miracle leaves evidence that we can study today, then we can test that particular "how" that God did it. Creationism posits a "how God did it" that would leave evidence we can study today. When we look for that evidence, we find evidence instead that simply can't be there if creationism is true. Therefore creationism must be false. God did not create that way.
You mean like a snake that is 3 to 5 minutes old. How exactly would that look?
I gave you one example: a 3-5 minute old adult snake, freshly created or transformed, would not have remodeling marks in the bones. You could only see these if you killed the snake, dissected the bones, and then viewed them under a microscope, but you could tell whether you had an adult snake that was 5-7 years old versus one created 3-5 minutes ago. Another indication would be that the scales of the miraculously created snake would not have any wear marks. There are probably other subtle clues if you know more about snake anatomy and physiology.
The point I am trying to make is that, if we had the snake, and it really was only 3-5 minutes after it was miraculously created, then yes, we could tell, by science, that it was miraculously created. The limitation of science here is not the miraculous nature of the snake's origin, but rather that the event happened 3500 or so years ago and the snake is long dead and lost. We don't have the snake to study.
And how exactly would this benefit the Hebrews among whom this miracle was performed as a sign of God’s limitless power in addition to His turning water into blood?
This is irrelevant. Remember, the Hebrews at the time witnessed the staff turning into a snake. Their evidence was what they actually saw with their own eyeballs. What I am saying is that the snake would, as you claim, look like any other snake. There would be subtle differences that would allow us -- if we had the snake today -- to determine that, yes, the miracle did occur.
I don’t see its relevance to my post so I won’t bother.
I suggest you look it up, because the relevance is there. You are making the Oomphalos argument. You apparently don't realize it, but you are. Or you already know the Oomphalos argument and simply don't want to admit that you are using it?
__________________ "If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890
Yeah, but I don't even know how he means it metaphorically.
Doveaman's metaphorical visions have several problems, both theological and for accuracy. But think about it this way: it is like a scientist saying he "was there" at the birth of the solar system. Of course he wasn't, but he can take available evidence and make a mental reconstruction of the event. Several people have converted their mental images to TV and film images so everyone can "see" and "be there" at the event.
__________________ "If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." Rev. James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, 1890
Christian faith knows. It knows because of the written word of God in scripture and the living Word of God in our hearts.
This is Fundamentalism, not Christianity. Christian faith "knows" because of the evidence of a personal relationship with God and the risen Christ. Scripture helps us get to that personal relationship.
And that was exactly my point. Thanks for explaining it with such greater clarity because I wouldn't want to be mistaken for a Fundamentalist.
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It takes more faith to believe the universe happened by chance than to believe it happened by God.- Doveaman
Last edited by Doveaman; 9th November 2009 at 04:47 PM.
I was also crucified with Christ two thousand years ago. I was buried with him and raised to life with him. I am now seated with Christ in heaven at this present time. I am also present on the sabbath day of creation week.
Doveaman's metaphorical visions have several problems, both theological and for accuracy. But think about it this way: it is like a scientist saying he "was there" at the birth of the solar system. Of course he wasn't, but he can take available evidence and make a mental reconstruction of the event. Several people have converted their mental images to TV and film images so everyone can "see" and "be there" at the event.
I don't think Christ had television or cinema in mind when He inspired these words:
I have been crucified with Christ...Gal 2:20
We were therefore buried with him...Rom 6:4.
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms...Eph 2:6.
"And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." Now we who have believed do enter that rest...Heb 4:3-4.
__________________ And God said, "Let there be light" and there was light. And God saw the light was good... To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
It takes more faith to believe the universe happened by chance than to believe it happened by God.- Doveaman
Last edited by Doveaman; 9th November 2009 at 05:03 PM.
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