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  #111  
Old 27th November 2010, 04:40 PM
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I wouldn't want to hear that from a neoconservative, either.
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  #112  
Old 3rd December 2010, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottBot View Post
Granted, its more diverse and complex than this, as there are socially conservative libertarians who embrace a curtailment of abortion, and certainly abhor the fact that it is federally funded. There are "liberal" libertarians who strongly advocate for legalization of marijuana. (Note that these are only two small representative examples).
Actually... It's pretty widespread that most libertarians don't just advocate for marijuana legalization, they also advocate for the end of all drug prohibition. It's one of the few key differences between libertarians and conservatives. Liberals don't advocate for legalization at all, so dubbing it a "liberal libertarian" philosophy is very off. A "liberal libertarian" would be better described as a pro choice libertarian.

Also being conservative by it's true definition would be pretty close to being a libertarian. Conservatives used to believe in live and let live, limited government, and non interventionist foreign policy. Now the closest thing to describe republicans/conservatives would be a Natzi, the worst of both worlds: socially neoconservative and fiscally liberal with an aggressive control the rest of the world foreign policy. Gigantic government all across the board, very china-like. I swear man i watched a debate when john mccain was running for senator of arizona just a few months ago and one of the founders of the libertarian party the late David Nolan (RIP) was also participating. John McCain is sitting there saying "I'm going to propose tax cuts of up to 20 billion which we can redirect to our public schools"---...... When David Nolan had a chance to talk to pretty much sum it up he said "Ok, 7 trillion minus 20 billion is still pretty much 7 trillion. The only way to end the deficit is to stop spending, plain and simple." And all republicans do this! And they LOVE public education! What a monster!
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  #113  
Old 3rd December 2010, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MacFall View Post
People like Beck use the term "libertarian" to attempt to distinguish themselves from neoconservative Republicans, but libertarianism isn't the same thing as "Old Right" conservatism or even classical liberalism. Libertarianism is a distinct ethical philosophy, and Beck doesn't subscribe to it. He's better than most of the talking heads, and he certainly has some good things to say (especially regarding the Federal Reserve), but I don't agree with him on enough of the issues to watch or listen to his show. I used to, but I stopped when he was part of the establishment Republican gang-up against Ron Paul during the Republican primary. And even though I guess they're on friendly terms now, I'm still not a fan.

I will watch if he has any people on of whom I am a fan, though. I'd love to see him and Andrew Napolitano talk about civil rights. That would be an interesting discussion.
Libertarianism is classical liberalism. If there are any differences please explain : o I'de love to learn more!
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  #114  
Old 3rd December 2010, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Moncus View Post
Libertarianism is classical liberalism. If there are any differences please explain : o I'de love to learn more!
There really are none. If you want to read up on the current American disposition of libertarianism, go to www.lewrockwell.com
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  #115  
Old 3rd December 2010, 10:03 PM
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Classical liberalism is the political doctrine that the state should be limited to a few functions, but those functions were never agreed upon by its adherents. The "protection of natural rights" school of Locke (and later Jefferson) ran up sharply against the social welfare school of people like John Stuart Mill, and the industrial and financial mercantilism of Alexander Hamilton. But all of those people were classical liberals by virtue of the fact that they believed in limiting the power of the state to their respective favorite functions, and that any activity not governed explicitly by those functions must be regarded as legally permissible.

Libertarianism, by contrast, is not a political doctrine. Rather, it is an ethical proposition with political consequences, the ethics in question being that of the moral impermissibility of initiatory force. And that principle, applied to politics, results in a much more radical opposition to state power than even the rights-theorist classical liberals would have tolerated.

However, the emergence of libertarianism did have a radicalizing influence on the remnants of classical liberalism in the early 20th century. Classical liberals like Leonard Read, Albert Jay Nock, H.L. Mencken, Herbert Spencer, and Ludwig von Mises, while never embracing a wholly anti-political social worldview, admitted the moral necessity of such libertarian ideas as the right of secession and disobedience to the state. And those things, in practice, would result in a form of governance that would scarcely resemble the political state at all.
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  #116  
Old 3rd December 2010, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by MacFall View Post
However, the emergence of libertarianism did have a radicalizing influence on the remnants of classical liberalism in the early 20th century. Classical liberals like Leonard Read, Albert Jay Nock, H.L. Mencken, Herbert Spencer, and Ludwig von Mises, while never embracing a wholly anti-political social worldview, admitted the moral necessity of such libertarian ideas as the right of secession and disobedience to the state. And those things, in practice, would result in a form of governance that would scarcely resemble the political state at all.
Even so, it may seem that cynicism towards government is a big time libertarian thing but it's really an American thing. Even republicans and democrats from 100 years ago would have one or two things they thought the government should be involved in, and 100% everything else was the libertarian platform.
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  #117  
Old 4th December 2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MacFall View Post
Classical liberalism is the political doctrine that the state should be limited to a few functions, but those functions were never agreed upon by its adherents. The "protection of natural rights" school of Locke (and later Jefferson) ran up sharply against the social welfare school of people like John Stuart Mill, and the industrial and financial mercantilism of Alexander Hamilton. But all of those people were classical liberals by virtue of the fact that they believed in limiting the power of the state to their respective favorite functions, and that any activity not governed explicitly by those functions must be regarded as legally permissible.

Libertarianism, by contrast, is not a political doctrine. Rather, it is an ethical proposition with political consequences, the ethics in question being that of the moral impermissibility of initiatory force. And that principle, applied to politics, results in a much more radical opposition to state power than even the rights-theorist classical liberals would have tolerated.

However, the emergence of libertarianism did have a radicalizing influence on the remnants of classical liberalism in the early 20th century. Classical liberals like Leonard Read, Albert Jay Nock, H.L. Mencken, Herbert Spencer, and Ludwig von Mises, while never embracing a wholly anti-political social worldview, admitted the moral necessity of such libertarian ideas as the right of secession and disobedience to the state. And those things, in practice, would result in a form of governance that would scarcely resemble the political state at all.
Right. The primary ethical principle of libertarianism is the principle of non-aggression. This is not pacifism. It means that one's life is guided by the principle of doing no harm to another (physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or financially), but if one is transgressed upon, you may defend yourself in whatever means you believe just.
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  #118  
Old 8th December 2010, 01:56 PM
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Why did I not see this pub before? I'm glad I found it.

Anyways I had a question or two I was hoping some people could answer.

Whats the difference between the Austrian and Chicago Schools of Economics? I've heard some people say that the Chicago School is libertarian but I've never actually met a libertarian from the Chicago School. Is it libertarian? Why or why not?

Thanks
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  #119  
Old 8th December 2010, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LordTimothytheWise View Post
Alex Jones anyone? Thoughts? opinions?
I'm not really sure what to think of him either. What he says makes sense but I think most people would consider his ideas conspiracy theories.

What do you think, is it mostly a load of crap? Or can we trust the majority of what he says?
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  #120  
Old 8th December 2010, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by callmeMurph View Post
Why did I not see this pub before? I'm glad I found it.

Anyways I had a question or two I was hoping some people could answer.

Whats the difference between the Austrian and Chicago Schools of Economics? I've heard some people say that the Chicago School is libertarian but I've never actually met a libertarian from the Chicago School. Is it libertarian? Why or why not?

Thanks
Strictly speaking, no school of economics is libertarian or otherwise. Economics is wertfreiheit--a value-free science; it tells people what the consequences of certain actions will be, and explains why those consequences happen. It does not say whether people should do something or shouldn't. Libertarianism, on the other hand, does propose a moral "ought"; that people should prefer liberty to control, choice to monopoly, and peaceful association to violence. However, free-market economics is essential to libertarian thought because it shows that libertarian values such as peace, personal property rights, and voluntary exchange result in more good things for everybody, which is to say that libertarian ethics work in practice.

The Chicago school is not really a free-market school of economics. It makes recommendations that would maintain the government's socialistic monopoly on money production and valuation, as well as certain "public goods". Although it calls for more "freedom" (defined as the availability of choice; not really as an ethical standard against political force interfering with voluntary human action) than its rival Keynesian economics, it is not free-market in principle, because a free market, by definition, would be a market unaffected by such political monopolies as central banks, which the Chicago school unfortunately defends.

Epistemologically, it differs from Austrianism in that the Chicago school is largely empirical and positivist: they rely on mathematical predictive models to form their theories of how markets will act. But in contrast to Austrian economics, they lack a theoretical framework to explain why those models work, or why they don't. Austrian economics, as developed by Ludwig von Mises, is a purely logical science, based upon irrefutable axioms. Namely, that "man acts", and that in acting he expresses preference. So then, all conscience human action is performed with the expectation that it will meet the most urgent need that can be met through action at that particular instant. These principles cannot be refuted, because in the very act of attempting to refute them, a person acts, expressing preference, and proving the very things he means to refute.

This axiomatic science is referred to as "praxeology", the study of conscious human action. All the basic laws of microeconomics, such as supply and demand, marginal utility, and so forth, can be easily inferred from praxeology. The rest of economic science is developed by further application of the same principles, rigorously drawing out the implications of praxeological axioms to their furthest possible logical conclusions. So then when the other economic schools' predictions turn out to be false, while they adjust their models over and over again and still never quite get it right, the Austrians can explain why they were wrong in the first place by pointing out how the predictions violate axiomatic truths about human action.
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Last edited by MacFall; 8th December 2010 at 09:51 PM.
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