Ye Olde Libertarian Pub

There is no universally agreed upon set of libertarian founders... though I could make a case for both Lao Tzu and Jesus Christ as early libertarians.

Libertarian ethics? No, I don't buy that. The only person I know of who promulgated a distinctive libertarian ethics, i.e., distinct from the common ethics of Western Civilization, was Ayn Rand... and her ethics based on rational self-interest, and which assumed atheism and reductionist materialism, was antithetical to Christianity. (Btw, former Ayn Rand follower here. ) What makes libertarianism different from other political philosophies is its politics, not its ethics. We don't have to agree on ethics to agree on the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights, and free market economics. Christians, Objectivists and Satanists can all be libertarians, despite our ethical and philosophical differences. All we have to agree on is politics.

Am I a real libertarian? Not by some purist definitions, no, though I have been a member of the Libertarian Party since it was first on the ballot, in 1972, the first year I was eligible to vote. I am, like Milton Friedman, fairly pragmatic and utilitarian. And I identify with F.A. Hayek, who called himself a classical liberal. But Friedman and Hayek, both Nobel prize winners, have been very influential thinkers within the libertarian movement, and rightly so.

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From wikipedia: "Libertarianism is the advocacy of individual liberty, especially freedom of thought and action.[1] Roderick T. Long defines libertarianism as "any political position that advocates a radical redistribution of power [either "total or merely substantial"] from the coercive state to voluntary associations of free individuals", whether "voluntary association" takes the form of the free market or of communal co-operatives.[2] David Boaz writes that, "Libertarianism is the view that each person has the right to live his life in any way he chooses so long as he respects the equal rights of others" and that, "Libertarians defend each person's right to life, liberty, and property--rights that people have naturally, before governments are created."[3]"

You can find out who the founders of the ideology were by finding out who first used the term. As the Wikipedia article notes, the French anarcho-communists actually first used the word libertaire in a political sense. But the first English use of "libertarian" as describing a belief in individual liberty can be traced to Leonard Read of the Foundation for Economic Education, who was a radical proponent of free markets. One of his contemporaries, Murray Rothbard (who co-founded the Libertarian Party and was called "the father of American libertarianism" by many of his contemporaries), wrote two books that defined the philosophy to its logical conclusions: For a New Liberty - The Libertarian Manifesto and The Ethics of Liberty. Rothbard didn't do anything new in definitive terms; he only described the logical implications of what were already regarded as the core principles of libertarian philosophy.

Many people who are today described as libertarian are in fact classical liberals, or paleo-conservatives, or Constitutional absolutists, and even to some extent neoliberals, or other related - but distinct - ideologies. Ayn Rand actually despised libertarianism, calling it "Objectivism with its teeth pulled". Hayek could be considered a classical liberal, but even he departed substantially from his staunchly classical liberal mentor, Ludwig von Mises. Milton Friedman was closer to neoliberalism than Hayek was. All of these people certainly contributed to libertarian thought - but so have others of viewpoints that are wildly divergent from libertarianism. And what is the point of having the word "libertarian" in the first place if it is to be conflated with half a dozen other ideologies covering a wide range of similarity and disparity?

At its core, libertarianism is a distinctly anti-political philosophy. Its political recommendations, such as they are, are informed by its ethics. Libertarian ethics affirm self-ownership and non-aggression. When you have those, you have a free market. When you have a free market, you have the smallest state possible - which some would say means replacing the state entirely with contractual law.

BTW, just to be clear, I never said that one has to be entirely opposed to the state to be a libertarian. But because libertarianism implies things like the right of secession and the possibility of polycentric legal orders, it is quite possible to be both - and a libertarian would at least have to admit the justice, if not the possibility, of a society defined by absolute recognition of individual self-ownership and law based upon the non-aggression principle.

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Alex Jones anyone? Thoughts? opinions?

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"If you are really a product of a materialistic universe, how is it that you don't feel at home there?" C.S. Lewis

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." C.S. Lewis

"You can't get a cup of tea big enough or a book long enough to suit me." C. S. Lewis

Originally Posted by LordTimothytheWise

Alex Jones anyone? Thoughts? opinions?

I hadn't heard of him until this post. So I read the Wiki article about him. He sounds interesting, someone I might enjoy listening to, though I'd probably disagree on some things... especially on the conspiracy stuff, most of which I don't buy at all. I'll see if I can find him on the radio anywhere.

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He does a good job reporting on the rise of the police state (militarization, surveillance, unconstitutional powers, and police abuse in general).

But I don't like the whole conspiracy angle - not because I believe conspiracy theories to be categorically wrong, but because I think it's a waste of time to go chasing them down rabbit holes. Who cares whether the government actually blew up the twin towers, or merely failed to guard the American people from the consequences of U.S. foreign policy? Either way, the state is evil, and there is sufficient proof of that without resorting to conspiracy theory.

I also don't like the constant stream of anger that he projects. I understand that anger can be justified, but that doesn't mean it's wise to be angry. There's always something to be angry about. But most of the time, being angry doesn't help you do anything about those things, and it damages your soul in the meantime.

I think Jones is a good guy. We have enough shared goals and ideas for me to consider him an ally. But I don't listen to his show, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is new to the ideas of liberty. I believe there are healthier ways to approach the issues he addresses than that which he takes.

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Chicago Boyz » Blog Archive » The Left’s Power of Self-Delusion

"The single most dangerous thing about leftists is their capacity for self-delusion. Most leftists really do believe that they personally know what is best for everyone."

"Beyond their personal intellectual and moral hubris, leftists think they know best because they believe themselves to belong to a line of ideological descent which has always been altruistic, benevolent and always proven correct in the long run. The reason they believe that is because leftists know nothing of their own history. Instead, they take a simplified, cartoonish view of their ideological predecessors that can only be described as hagiographic. Any mistakes or evils perpetrated by anyone that leftists identify with are simply written out of leftists’ history."

Ouch! That' gonna leave a mark! And I thought I was tough on the lefties!!

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Let me at thy throne of mercy
find a sweet relief,
kneeling there in deep contrition;
help my unbelief.

Pass Me Not O Gentle Savior

Good quote, but replace the word "left" with "state" to make it more accurate. Left and Right are meaningless distinctions. There is tyranny on one side, and liberty on the other. It doesn't matter which hand you name them after. The original terms were taken from the parliament of the French republic, where the reformers sat on the left and the conservatives (in the classical sense rather than the modern one) sat on the right. Among the reformers was Frederic Bastiat. That makes one of the greatest free market thinkers of all time a "leftist". But apparently, so was Stalin. That makes the left-right scale sort of pointless, doesn't it?

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Wow, not alot of movement in my 2 year absence. Need to get this joint moving again.

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So... David Nolan died today.

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My nightmare:


"I'm going to marry your daughter."