Are We Going Into The Biblical Time of Tribulation??

get it right · #21 6th February 2009, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by saint2

Well...I was born in 1932 during Prohibition and the great depression, but as I remember, we did a lot of eating and drinking at the time, lol.

My dad and uncles made their own booze, and when we got hungry, we stopped at the local butchers shop, and he would slaughter a cow behind his shop and sell us soup bones, heart, liver, tongue, etc ... things my wife refuses to cook today, lol. But it was real food then, not this crap sold in today's supermarkets. People were poor but there seemed to be adequate food to go around, except maybe in the dust bowl in the southwest...I don't know about them. Since we were near the railroad tracks, we had hobo's stop at our house two or three times a week for a food handout, but these were mostly young men who offered to do odd chores, like paint our house number on the steps. One day a hobo stopped and asked my mom for a drink of water, and when she handed a glass to him, he grabbed her. She screamed, which woke my dad who was taking a nap, and dad chased him barefoot up the street for two or three blocks before he got away, lol.

Bob Frantz

maybe the economy will get as bad as the GD, maybe worse, but i recall verses where in Noah's day which has been compared to the time of the end, they were not only eating and drinking but partying and having a good time. was it like that in the GD.
anyway when the ark was shut up and the floods came, that all ended.
wnen satan indwells the beast-ac things will get bad, God's wrath on sinners will get even worse, never will there have been troubles like it since the beginning of the world and not a single person would survive if God hadn't shortened those days.

saint2 · #22 6th February 2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by get it right

maybe the economy will get as bad as the GD, maybe worse, but i recall verses where in Noah's day which has been compared to the time of the end, they were not only eating and drinking but partying and having a good time. was it like that in the GD.
anyway when the ark was shut up and the floods came, that all ended.
wnen satan indwells the beast-ac things will get bad, God's wrath on sinners will get even worse, never will there have been troubles like it since the beginning of the world and not a single person would survive if God hadn't shortened those days.

No, not much partying and good times during the GD.

I think that went out with the Roaring Twenties.

During hard times, it seems people are more compassionate and thoughtful of one another. During the GD, we were better off than most because grandpa owned a grocery store and rented property in the surrounding area which they called Little Italy because of all the poor Italian immigrants there at the time. They would come in the grocery,and buy maybe an onion or some small item and charge it. My aunt (her husband was a railroad man who ran off shortly after the wedding) ran the store and she would dutifully write up the item and its price in a little book kept for each customer. When the charge book eventually got full, my aunt would toss it into a barrel in the back of the store, since the customer rarely seemed to have enough money to pay off the charges. Then whenever the barrel got too full, grandpa would toss it out and start over with a new barrel.

One day a tenant came in complaining that their outhouse was too full and needed service. Grandpa told him to just put a horse collar on the seat to raise it up. The tenant then answered grandpa saying that he had already put a box and two horse collars on the seat, and that it still wasn't high enough. lol.

In those days, births and death's were taken care of in the home. Once a little girl came in the store saying her mom wanted a small box so they could put their new baby in it that was born that morning. The dead were laid out at home until burial, and one day a girl came into the store wanting to borrow two pennies to put on her dead grandpa's eyes until after the funeral. So sad. My dad also rented out a three room shack, on the back of our property, to a small family of five. I remember we shared an outhouse with them until my dad could get a bathroom addition built onto our house. But this three room shack had no heat, no running water, and no wood floors, only dirt floors for this poor family.

We were poor then, but I was much happier then than now, because then nearly all my relatives (there were many, aunts, uncles and cousins), lived within close walking distance. But today our families have little contact, because we're spread all over this country, and throughout the world.

Bob Frantz

HisdaughterJen · #23 6th February 2009, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mouth Nana

Well, you have said it before, and I will say what I have said once again Dear Jen, if you read Matthew 24:8, it says that these things are the beginning of sorrows. What things? The things that Jesus had just stated in verses -1-7...No mention of tribulation yet. Jesus even states in verse 8.. All these are the beginning of sorrows, the things he had just stated before he gets to verse 9. It goes from the beginning of sorrows right into the great tribulation...which will be a BIG sorrow!!!
The Great tribulation doesn't start until the abomination of desolation, but what we are in right now could very well start the tribulation period itself. There have been earthquakes, wars, pestilences, famines and persecutions since the fall in the garden!! The first recorded earthquake in the bible was in 1 Kings 19:11. The first recorded war was in Genesis 14:2. The first famine recorded was in Genesis 12:10. The first prophecied pestilence was in Exodus 5:3. David was talking about being persecuted in Psalm 31:15. JESUS WASN'T EVEN BORN YET TO SEND RIDERS OUT so these aren't the same "beginning of sorrows" events. These particular riders had to have started ONLY since Jesus acension, and are NOT the tribulation. Jesus even says after the abomination of desolation verse in 15, 6 verses down in verse 21...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
The trumpets, beast, and two witnesses are NOT the wrath!!! The wrath doesn't start until right after the two witnesses are caught up in Rev chapter 11:12, and right before the last and seventh angel sounds. The wrath starts in verse 18. Why you can't see that is beyond me. The scriptural sequence is right there.

Nana, LOOK!

Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

...

Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

The seventh seal (outpouring of wrath on the Day of Wrath) begins with the trumpets and continues with the two witnesses, the beasts and ends with the bowls.

Rev 8:1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Now, why is this so hard to see?

1. TRIBULATION
2. DAY OF WRATH BEGINS WHEN SUN/MOON DARKEN
3. OUTPOURING OF WRATH (TRUMPETS, BEASTS, TWO WITNESSES, BOWLS)

It's RIGHT THERE!

LOOK at what happens before the sun/moon darken and look at what happens after the sun/moon darken!

The tribulation happens, then the sun/moon darken at the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath, then the wrath starts pouring out in the form of the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls.

God told you TWICE when those four seal riders were sent out:

Rev 5:6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth
Rev 5:7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
...

Rev 6:1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"

Did you catch that? The four seal riders were sent out AFTER Jesus died and ascended!

Here's the second clue:

Eze 14:21"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments--sword and famine and wild beasts and plague--to kill its men and their animals!

When were these things sent against JERUSALEM???? AFTER CHRIST ASCENDED leading up to 70AD!

Do you see that? The four seal riders have been riding since Christ ascended and certainly since judgment came on Jerusalem in 66-70AD!

They have been riding (in frequency and intensity) ever since. They are the tribulation. Nothing like it has ever happened to Israel or to the world. Unless these days are cut short (when the sun/moon darken during the Northern army invasion of Israel (Joel 2)) then no one will survive but for the sake of the elect (the 144,000 who are sealed and protected during the trumpets) these days (2 days/2000 years) will be shortened.

Big Mouth Nana · #24 6th February 2009, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen

Nana, LOOK!

Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,

...

Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

The seventh seal (outpouring of wrath on the Day of Wrath) begins with the trumpets and continues with the two witnesses, the beasts and ends with the bowls.

Rev 8:1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Now, why is this so hard to see?

1. TRIBULATION
2. DAY OF WRATH BEGINS WHEN SUN/MOON DARKEN
3. OUTPOURING OF WRATH (TRUMPETS, BEASTS, TWO WITNESSES, BOWLS)

It's RIGHT THERE!

LOOK at what happens before the sun/moon darken and look at what happens after the sun/moon darken!

The tribulation happens, then the sun/moon darken at the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath, then the wrath starts pouring out in the form of the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls.

God told you TWICE when those four seal riders were sent out:

Rev 5:6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth
Rev 5:7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
...

Rev 6:1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"

Did you catch that? The four seal riders were sent out AFTER Jesus died and ascended!

Here's the second clue:

Eze 14:21"For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments--sword and famine and wild beasts and plague--to kill its men and their animals!

When were these things sent against JERUSALEM???? AFTER CHRIST ASCENDED leading up to 70AD!

Do you see that? The four seal riders have been riding since Christ ascended and certainly since judgment came on Jerusalem in 66-70AD!

They have been riding (in frequency and intensity) ever since. They are the tribulation. Nothing like it has ever happened to Israel or to the world. Unless these days are cut short (when the sun/moon darken during the Northern army invasion of Israel (Joel 2)) then no one will survive but for the sake of the elect (the 144,000 who are sealed and protected during the trumpets) these days (2 days/2000 years) will be shortened.

Of course it's the wrath. It is the same time frame as Rev 11:18 and Matthew 24:51. It is NOT the wrath until after we are gone at the seventh and last angel. Then the wrath in Rev11:18. The first 4 seal riders are not the tribulation...yet, but getting real close. I figure we are at the 4th seal now, so they couldn't have been riding since judgment came on Jerusalem. The seals weren't even released until Christ acended. What happened in 70AD was Gods judgment..not the tribulation..but of course you are stuck in this mode, so whatever shall be will be

HisdaughterJen · #25 7th February 2009, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Big Mouth Nana

Of course it's the wrath. It is the same time frame as Rev 11:18 and Matthew 24:51. It is NOT the wrath until after we are gone at the seventh and last angel. Then the wrath in Rev11:18. The first 4 seal riders are not the tribulation...yet, but getting real close. I figure we are at the 4th seal now, so they couldn't have been riding since judgment came on Jerusalem. The seals weren't even released until Christ acended. What happened in 70AD was Gods judgment..not the tribulation..but of course you are stuck in this mode, so whatever shall be will be

Then why, Nana, does the Bible say that the Day of Wrath begins in the 6th seal if the outpouring of wrath doesn't come, as you say, until after the end of the 7th seal (which is after the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls)?

The only thing happening after the 7th trumpet is the destruction of the wicked. The wrath will have all been poured out by that time.

Do you see what I'm saying?

There's an entire 7th seal to be opened after the 6th seal/Day of Wrath begins. That 7th seal includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls. Christ comes after the 7th trumpet/7th bowl (which are identical) to destroy the evil.

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
...
Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

then:

Rev 8:1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Furthermore, Jesus described the tribulation in Matt 24. There's NOTHING in that Matt 24 description of the tribulation about the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses or the bowls! This is because the tribulation is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, and martyrdom that happen until the sun/moon darken and the Day of Wrath begins. Jesus described the tribulation which lines up with seals 1-4 of Rev 6. He said that the tribulation ends when the sun/moon darken which is Seal #6 of Rev 6. There's another seal, the 7th seal, after the tribulation ends and the sun/moon darken in the 6th seal that Jesus did not describe in great detail in Matt 24.

Notrash · #26 7th February 2009, 09:45 AM

I wonder if we've lived in a "democracy' for so long that we think that a majority vote in a poll establishes truth and reality.....

HisdaughterJen · #27 7th February 2009, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Notrash

I wonder if we've lived in a "democracy' for so long that we think that a majority vote in a poll establishes truth and reality.....

Sadly, that's the assumption that people are making, it seems.

There is ONE truth and the only opinion that counts is our Heavenly Father's opinion and declaration on the matter.

Big Mouth Nana · #28 8th February 2009, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Notrash

I wonder if we've lived in a "democracy' for so long that we think that a majority vote in a poll establishes truth and reality.....

Well it worked for Obama

Big Mouth Nana · #29 8th February 2009, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen

Then why, Nana, does the Bible say that the Day of Wrath begins in the 6th seal if the outpouring of wrath doesn't come, as you say, until after the end of the 7th seal (which is after the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls)?

The only thing happening after the 7th trumpet is the destruction of the wicked. The wrath will have all been poured out by that time.

Do you see what I'm saying?

There's an entire 7th seal to be opened after the 6th seal/Day of Wrath begins. That 7th seal includes the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses, and the bowls. Christ comes after the 7th trumpet/7th bowl (which are identical) to destroy the evil.

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
...
Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

then:

Rev 8:1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
Rev 8:2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

Furthermore, Jesus described the tribulation in Matt 24. There's NOTHING in that Matt 24 description of the tribulation about the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses or the bowls! This is because the tribulation is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, and martyrdom that happen until the sun/moon darken and the Day of Wrath begins. Jesus described the tribulation which lines up with seals 1-4 of Rev 6. He said that the tribulation ends when the sun/moon darken which is Seal #6 of Rev 6. There's another seal, the 7th seal, after the tribulation ends and the sun/moon darken in the 6th seal that Jesus did not describe in great detail in Matt 24.

Okay, one more time for good measure, then I give up. Jen what cosmic disturbances happen right prior to Christs coming in Matt 24? This is the same event as in Matt 24...Rev 6:12-17 ~ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Same thing here-----> Joel 2:10 -11 ~ The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter HIS voice before HIS army (US): for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? This army is us. We have already been changed. There are certain events that are mentioned more then one time in the Word. Some just add more detail or omit other things. The Day of Wrath does begin in the 6th seal, but so does Christ's coming. Like I have said many times, the coming of Christ and The Day of The Lord are the same day!!
The coming of Christ/day of wrath goes from the 6th seal to the 7th and last angel beginning to sound in Rev 10:7..he doesn't completely sound until Rev 11:15. The wrath then continues after the two witnesses are caught up with the bride. If you will notice, it doesn't say that the wrath is one continual flow. I believe that there is a pause between the wrath at the end of the sixth seal and at the end of the last angel sounding the trumpet In Rev 11. The remnant are still here and so are the two witnesses prior to the wrath in Rev 11:18. I doubt very seriously if he is going to pour His wrath out while they are still here, so there has to be a pause at the end of seal 6 and at seal 7...Rev 8:1~ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour....the pause...then the wrath continues.

HisdaughterJen · #30 8th February 2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mouth Nana

Okay, one more time for good measure, then I give up. Jen what cosmic disturbances happen right prior to Christs coming in Matt 24? This is the same event as in Matt 24...Rev 6:12-17 ~ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Same thing here-----> Joel 2:10 -11 ~ The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Then we agree up to this point!

11 And the LORD shall utter HIS voice before HIS army (US): for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? This army is us. We have already been changed.

Why would God need humans to fight His battles for Him? When Christ comes on the clouds, the devil's armies are destroyed by the word coming from His mouth. There are no weapons used. God speaks and it comes to pass.

There are certain events that are mentioned more then one time in the Word. Some just add more detail or omit other things. The Day of Wrath does begin in the 6th seal, but so does Christ's coming. Like I have said many times, the coming of Christ and The Day of The Lord are the same day!!

Sort of. There are three events. The gathering together to Him, the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath and the coming of Christ on the clouds which is just over 3 1/2 years after the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath.

This is what Paul describes in 2 Thess 2. This is what Revelation describes as well.

Nutshell version:
1. gathering to Christ of those who are born of the Spirit (seal #5)
2. Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins when sun/moon darken (Seal #6)
3. Outpouring of wrath = trumpets, beasts, two witnesses, bowls (Seal #7)
4. Christ comes on the clouds. He destroys the army that formed to fight against Him in bowl #6 of the 7th seal.

Jesus did not describe the events of the 7th seal in Matt 24.

The coming of Christ/day of wrath goes from the 6th seal to the 7th and last angel beginning to sound in Rev 10:7..he doesn't completely sound until Rev 11:15. The wrath then continues after the two witnesses are caught up with the bride. If you will notice, it doesn't say that the wrath is one continual flow. I believe that there is a pause between the wrath at the end of the sixth seal and at the end of the last angel sounding the trumpet In Rev 11. The remnant are still here and so are the two witnesses prior to the wrath in Rev 11:18. I doubt very seriously if he is going to pour His wrath out while they are still here, so there has to be a pause at the end of seal 6 and at seal 7...Rev 8:1~ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour....the pause...then the wrath continues.

The 7th seal is the trumpets, the beasts, the two witnesses and the bowls.

The Joel 2 Northern Army invasion happens when the sun/moon darken (6th seal) according to Joel 2.

The sun/moon darkening is AFTER the tribulation and BEFORE the Day of Wrath/Day of the Lord begins according to Matt 24, Rev 6 and Joel 2.

The first trumpet of the 7th seal (trumpets and bowls, two witnesses and beasts) involves blood, fire, hail. Is it a coincidence that what destroys the Northern Army invasion in Ezek 38 is blood, fire, hail just after the sun/moon darken?

Regarding the two witnesses...let's focus on what it does say:

1. They testify and pour out plagues for 1260 days.
2. The beast out of the abyss (trumpet #5) is the one who kills them.
3. They die after the 6th trumpet and before the bowls (which are between the 6th and 7th trumpet).
4. They have something to do with the rebuilding of the temple (Zech).

I'd say that if the gog/Northern army invasion/destruction is on purim, then the witnesses begin their 1260 day testimony right at that time. The temple is then built within weeks in time for Passover (which is 30 days later) when the anti-christ declares Himself to be God and begins his 1260 day reign. That would leave a 30 day time period after the two witnesses' 1260 days for the bowls at day 1230 of the end of the devil's 1260 day reign before Christ comes on the Feast of Trumpets. (All speculation on my part)