knowledge about the faith and superstition amongst Orthodox

A couple of people I know, some very well, in an Eastern European country are Protestant converts from Orthodoxy.

All these people testify that during their time under Orthodoxy they knew hardly anything about the Christian faith and that noone bothered teaching them. The divine liturgy was held in a language they did not understand and they did now know what it was about. To be fair this has partly changed: the readings from Scriptures are in modern language. Also all these people testify, and I have experienced this myself, that most people in their country, who all consider themselves Orthodox christians, are strongly into superstition, horoscopes and things like that. For instance when seeing a newborn baby, people would say that the baby is really ugly. Because it is believed that when someone calls a baby pretty, this will bring a curse on the baby and it will scream a lot. Other examples would be certain beliefs concerning death and the time after death. People would drop beverages on graves so the dead have something to "drink". Or they would expect to hear noice in the house during the first 40 days after someone died.

Can you please comment on this and help me to understand what of this is belief of the Orthodox church and what is just folk belief the church tolerates? Can you please also comment on why all these people would testify to not having received any catechizing and not having been offered any respectively not having been aware of any catechism classes? Is this normal in the Orthodox church as all these friends of mine think?


Many thanks,
Till

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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est
Congregavit nos in unum Christi amor.
Exultemus, et in ipso iucundemur.
Timeamus, et amemus Deum vivum.
Et ex corde diligamus nos sincero.

Arg! I just lost my whole POST! okay, here i go again. (I apologize if this one come off less tactful, it's nothing against you or your question at all.. I am just losing patience with this computer).

It is true the Orthodox Church beleives that the Church is visible. That there is canonical (those under real bishops) and non-canonical (those not). But that is not to say that we believe that we are perfect. We believe the teachings of the Church are perfect in spite of us sinners and totally becuase of the work of the Holy Spirit. But what happens is that many in the CHurch, including priests, ignore or are ignorant of the teachings of the Church. You see, many in these traditionally Orthodox countries fell into the beleive that Orthodoxy equalled [enter nationality or ethnicity here] and vice-versa. Therefore, everything Orthodox was Ukranian and everything Ukranian was ORthodox. Therein lies the problem becuase this is why so many failed to seriously question the culture they grew up in. If the culture taught that Jews were evil people, then Orthodoxy taught that. If the culture taught that babies could be cursed unless you said some words over it (that had nothing to do with Christ overcoming evil) then that was Orthodox. It's the tail wagging the dog routine. And many felt that learning about the faith was a priest's job. And priests believed this too (not all,a nd i won't even say most) and so they would see no reason in urging their flock to pick up or even own a bible or read books about their faith and it would plain tacky to question anti-christian facets of the culture they live in (you wouldn't want to offend now!).
Yes, this happens. To what extent I cannot really say, but I am not going to act as if your friends are wrong... well, not totally.

You see, your friends left because they were dying of thirst. But the problem was not that Orthodoxy could not have quenched their thirst. on the contrary, it would have been more than they could have ever used. The problem is they rarely or never even experienced true Orthodoxy. They got superficial glimpses, but they were never introduced to the true life of the Church. Consider this also, not all parishes are like that and not all families are like that. Who are going to be the most likely to leave the Church? Those who say they weren't nourished! But it is hardly fair for them to say that this is what the Orthodox Church is about. I would suggest, in fact, that they have least idea of what Orthodoxy is. And it's not their fault necessarily. They wrong assumed that taht was it. It was just a cultural thing, period. But if you even take a quick look at the texts and teachings of the Church, it becomes immediately obvious that nothing could be further from the truth.

I went to Romania for three weeks when I was 21. Two of my friends there were what I would call cultural believers. Not simply nominal by any means, but not fully awake to the importance of the Church in their lives. Then I went to stay at a monastery for a few days. There, when you go to monasteries, you aren't alone. Many people, pilgrims and simply tourists stay there. You don't sleep IN the actual monastery. They have a place where visitors sleep. Anyway, I met quite a few Romanians my age there. They didn't live there. They were college students studying computer science, economics and law to name the few that I remember. Just normal stuff. I don't REMEMBER any of them being in seminary. But they were on fire for Christ. No, they weren't shouting in the streets, speaking tongues or anything like that. But you could tell that they not only knew their faith, but they worked hard to live it too. We didn't only talk about the Faith, we also talked about culture and all of that (a few of them knew English quite well and others not so much, so there was a lot of translating, especially for me since i knew next to nothing of the language). My point is that these weren't just some theology nerds. They all came from different walks of life. One didn't even go to college. He didn't know what he wante to do with his life and he just basically lived at the monastery. He wasn't planning on becoming a monk, but he lived a very monastic-like life. Man, he had eyes that would just peirce you with humility. There was such a peace about him and a sincerity and I would also leave speaking with him thinking "what in the world am I doing with my life?". htat was a total tangent. My apologies. Anyway.

In the end, my point is that yes, there seems to exist these problems in these countries andyes, they need to be addressed seriously (how, I don't know, because I am american and i won't pretend that my perspective could be helpful to them), but Orthodoxy still lives strong for those who seek it. No one is being forced to fall aslee at the wheel. That is their choice. Your friends chose to TRY to do something to fix that. But they went about it the wrong way. They dind't give the Church a chance. The assumed there was nothing more than their experience. It's very sad becasue they lost a lot. I've met a few people just like your friends. They all struck me as a bit bitter towards their past (which is understandable) and the Church (again, understandable, but not correct) and most of all GROSSLY misinformed as to what the Church truly teaches (but is that their fault??? I'm not convinced. It's just sad they gave up so easily).

Well, I will leave it here for right now. My guess is that this doesn't satisfy all of your questions, but hopefully it starts an honest dialogue.

Xpy

To answer your question in short: it is actually againt the Orthodox belief to believe in superstitions and horoscopes. Those who do really just don't have knowlege of the faith. It is ashame that instead of doing more research and studies they "jumped ship" so to say and found other churches. Orthodoxy is the fullness of Christianity.

Thanks GreekGrl for answering the question he actually asked. lol

By the way, above i said "they WERE basically a bunch of theology nerds" which went against my entire point. I meant to type, "They were NOT just a bunch of theology nerds." Poit being, normal ethnic romanians finding Christ despite the apathy that can be found among the cultural and nominal Orthodox of the land.

Xpy

the thread is a bit old but i would like to comment on it.

i will talk about my experience in Greece which is an orthodox country. i can't talk about any other place as i don't have knowledge about it.

after our infant baptism orthodox catechism relies mostly to our familiy's decisions. if our family practices orthodoxy then we will get acquainted with her. when we grow up we have the opportunity to go to sunday schools. that still relies to family a lot, because there are "orthodox called" parents that are afraid their children will end up being monks or nuns because of sunday school. after finishing school there are church gatherings for young people discussing orthodoxy.

nobody "forces" us learn our faith in an honest and proper way, that is why many of us have no idea of what orthodoxy is. in our ignorance we are very vulnerable to superstitions and secularization. i would read horoscopes myself many times just for the fun of it, but lately i got tired with them.

our ignorance and the thought that what we think or what we see is Orthodoxy cannot fulfill our thirst for the Truth.
some of us try to find the Truth in Orthodoxy, some others believe that that's it and leave the Church in the search of something else.

i think that most people that leave the church do that because they don't have a full understanding of her teachings. and maybe they didn't really try to find out about the teachings, they remained to the surface, to what can be seen by the eye.

probably, there will be people that leave the church because they don't like it. maybe they don't like or don't find usefull terms and practices like "humility", "ascetism", "constant repentance" etc.

regarding what the Church tolerates, the Church is not a theocratic state that imposes beliefs and practices. superstitions have remained through generations and the Church has fought and still is fighting against them, but she cannot impose religious laws in order to stop them.

i never heard that you should call a baby ugly to protect it, but we have a habit (not all practice it though) of slightly spitting the baby so that we draw the "bad" away from it. this kind of spitting is also found in Orthodox Baptism when we spit the devil.
i refrain from this habit but i will slightly cross a baby or something beautiful because i fear that my jealousness may do something bad to it.

my 2 cents and my half euro.

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Δόξα τω Πατρί και τω Υιώ και τω Αγίω Πνεύματι.

Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

Very true. I was baptized Orthodox, but didn't grow up in the church because, according to my mom, we moved every 2-4 years (which was true because my dad was in the air force for 30 years), and she didn't know where the churches were. Anyway, I grew up knowing there was God and Christ, but no specifics, never read the OT or the NT. So, eventually, when I was around 25, I decided to start attending a GOC where my parents had started to attend due to my sister returning to church and becoming a choir director down in Louisiana (we were in Denver, CO at the time - parents and I). At this time, I was big into seeing psychics, had astrology books and a dream interpretation dictionary. The first DL I went to, the homily the priest spoke of was believing in psychics, reading tea leaves, horoscopes, etc. were detractors from Christ and that you can't serve two Masters. Well, that really hit me. When I got home, I immediately threw all my books into the garbage!

__________________
"Where there is pride there cannot be grace, and if we lose grace we also lose both love of God and assurance in prayer. The soul is then tormented by evil thoughts and does not understand that she must humble herself and love her enemies, for there is no other way to please God." ~St. Silouan
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Know this: The Lord, He is God;
He made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of
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Enter into His gates with thanksgiving
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And his truth is from generation to
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~~Psalm 99~~

If the person grew up in a country that was part of the former USSR, they were not catechized in the Orthodox faith because they could have been killed for going to catechism classes. The Orthodox Church was barely tolerated in most of these countries, and was completely obliterated in Albania during Communist rule.

I do not know the age of your friends, but if they were raised during Communist rule, this could be the reason for their lack of knowledge in all things Orthodox.

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Till, the things you described happen in Catholic majority countries too. I live in the country that has the hightest number of "Catholics", and I have never met one that has a good idea about the religion they claim to believe. The "religious" Catholics actually have a lot of supertitions like the ones you talked about and ask things to saint statues as if they were lamp geniuses. I'm very aware of the doctrines about venerating saints, but in real life they are idolized just like the pagan beliefs that the church fathers fought against. The popular Catholic priests from my country are very Universalist and say things like "it doesn't matter one's beliefs. what matters is love". I'm talking about "real" Catholic priests; they even meet the pope when he comes here.

In the local Orthodox churches, I was surprised to learn that the priests actually talk about how to have a truly Christian life. Unlike the Catholic priests, in their homillies they don't mention politics and don't say bad things about people outside the Church. They keep the sermons in the spiritual level. However, that's not exactly the spiritualy I see on Orthodox websites, because they talk about the Kingdom of God as a different realm, like the Catholics. Among the large Cathedral "clergy team", I've seen only one father talking about theosis - and this father fully shaves his beard every morning, at least on Sundays.

Anyway, most Orthodox lay people themselves in my country aren't very concerned about religion (except the older people). They go to the churches because they are like cultural centres for their national groups. I'm sure that they do believe in something, but I can tell you that they know little about the meaning of the Orthodox traditions.

In the canonical Antiochian Orthodox cathedral, just for you to have an idea, there's a icon of God the Father in the ceiling - a human representation of God that is forbidden by Orthodox Church, in theory. They are Ecumenical and even host ecumenical meetings in the main part of the Church with leaders from different Christian denominations - in the last one, a Catholic bishop was responsible for the main lecture. To celebrate an event of the Arab community, even Muslims wearing turbans were invited. The cathedral was overcrowed and the archbishop said when referring to the entire Syrian-Lebanese community, "we all believe in the same God and that's what important" at the front of the main icon of Jesus.

Last time I was in the small Greek Orthodox cathedral, the priest, who is a very old nice man, was almost crying because the night before the community had a party in the Church lounge, and he couldn't sleep well because he lives upstairs. After the mass, I talked to the deacon about the ecumenist meetings in the Antiochian Cathedral. He taught me that "the Catholic church is no longer separated from the Orthodox church in spite of 'small differences'", and that Christians "should forget all differences, look at the things they have in common while praying together".

That's it. At least in my country, even the Orthodox clergymen teach that Allah and the Trinity are the same and that the papist church is part of the "true Christian Church", and they officially pray with "heretics" in ecumenical meetings. How can people be blamed if they convert to an Evangelical denomination then?

I wonder what the Fathers of the Church would think.

Well, of course they would say - This truly is the end.
Wake up, we who live now are ordained to live in these last days. Isn't that exciting. Why are you fighting, you know who you are. You are Orthodox Christians.

Well Kosmofilli, Brazil is a very ecumenist country. I would of guessed its brazil even if you didnt say that it has the most catholics because ive heard about the shenanigans that goes on there. But many know of the spiritual darkness that has grasped that country, and you have given an insight to the reasons. I pray that the pseudo -orthodoxy found in that country and the "orthodox-lite" mentality comes to an end.