Why Stop At The Torah? Ya know I appreciate my friends that love the Torah, and have love for the law..
What makes me wonder though, is why would some seek to go back to a former glory,that even a chief Pharisee called a ministry of death..
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
Christ was the fulfillment of the law,as a means of righteousness,and he brought about a new covenant by the cross,one ended,a new one began..
Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the newcovenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
We see the law was added so that the transgression might increase,and it works wrath,and it is the power of sin!
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
No one is justified by the law either..just more sin consciousness..thats all it does…
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
So we see that the law was good,but no one could ever follow it..except Jesus..
That was the intent,to show why we need to be in the new covenant,not the old!
Seems like all along,there was a plan of a new and better way,to leave the superficial glory,and move on to the new!
Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a newcovenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
The eternal glory!
2 Corinthians 3:11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Why go backwards?..
Paul said you will be living under a curse!
Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
Why was the law put in place?
Galatians 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
It would make transgression increase,therefore showing man cant keep the law,and needed a savior..
Seems like we are to walk in a new way,not an external command,but God writing on our hearts,an inner circumcision ..
2 Corinthians 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts
Grace is the new and better way,whereby even the prophets of old,looked to the fulfillment of the whole story..
Where was it all headed?
1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
So..question?
Since we know that the law produces the opposite intention,because it was weakened by the flesh,why keep trying to keep the old way?
Last edited by pinetree; 28th January 2009 at 10:20 PM.
is your problem the torah, torah observance, or the idea of salvation by works.
Steve
p.s. cause I see Paul hurrying to celebrate the feast days, encouraging the keeping of the passover, not breaking the traditions of the elders and other things, but yet I see him (appearing to be) saying other things about the feast days and food/drink. Paul seems to be confused at times.
p.p.s. i reject salvation by works, but the first two are perfectly acceptable.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blessed is the one coming in the name of ha’shem - בּרוּךְ הַבָּא בְּשֵׁם יְיָ
Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling..... be glory, majesty, dominion and authority for ever. (Jude) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
is your problem the torah, torah observance, or the idea of salvation by works.
Steve
p.s. cause I see Paul hurrying to celebrate the feast days, encouraging the keeping of the passover, not breaking the traditions of the elders and other things, but yet I see him (appearing to be) saying other things about the feast days and food/drink. Paul seems to be confused at times.
p.p.s. i reject salvation by works, but the first two are perfectly acceptable.
Boy..that is so strange...I had no idea you would see this thread...
Why Stop At The Torah? Ya know I appreciate my friends that love the Torah, and have love for the law..
What makes me wonder though, is why would some seek to go back to a former glory,that even a chief Pharisee called a ministry of death..
Paul upheld the Law for many stated reasons including making one aware of the presence of indwelling sin and the evil of lawlessness that is with us all.
2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
Christ was the fulfillment of the law,as a means of righteousness,and he brought about a new covenant by the cross,one ended,a new one began..
Yes, but this does not mean that the lawlessness has departed our flesh.
Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the newcovenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
We see the law was added so that the transgression might increase,and it works wrath,and it is the power of sin!
EXACTLY...so LET IT HAPPEN by applying the Law which HAS this intention! By speaking against it or detracting it we may only be postponing the inevitable intention of God.
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
No one is justified by the law either..just more sin consciousness..thats all it does…
You just cited another reason directly above.
Sin consciousness results in being DIVIDED from SIN which is also a part of the real working of the Law.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
So we see that the law was good,but no one could ever follow it..except Jesus..
Where did you get that idea? Included in the Law is the command to love our neighbors as ourselves. It is sheer idiocy to 'throw out' the Law on that basis alone. This axiom is the fulcrum of the Law, and YES, when 'we' as believers DO THAT we also fulfill the full requirements of the Law in ourselves. So no, it's not just Jesus that could fulfill the Law. That is an antinomian fairytale.
That was the intent,to show why we need to be in the new covenant,not the old!
Seems like all along,there was a plan of a new and better way,to leave the superficial glory,and move on to the new!
The Law is The Word of God. It's not going away anytime soon nor should it.
Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a newcovenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
The eternal glory!
2 Corinthians 3:11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
Why go backwards?..
Paul said you will be living under a curse!
It might light upon you someday that the covenant of the Law was against the lawless who are 'with' mankind. Mankind and the Lawless are not the same entities.
Mankind has LAWLESS ENTITIES with them for whom the O.C. Law was and remains against. And yes, christians still commit murder and express lawlessness everyday.
Galatians 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
Why was the law put in place?
Galatians 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
It would make transgression increase,therefore showing man cant keep the law,and needed a savior..
Obviously the Law has not done it's working in you yet. Though you may claim Christ which I certainly wouldn't hold against you, you try and pit the Law as being against Gods Words. There is no variance between the O.T. and the N.T. They are both vital and both required.
Fortunately the O.T. Law continues to do its work regardless of what people do with same. Its working has been put in play by God and work it does.
Seems like we are to walk in a new way,not an external command,but God writing on our hearts,an inner circumcision ..
2 Corinthians 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts
Grace is the new and better way,whereby even the prophets of old,looked to the fulfillment of the whole story..
Grace was not meant for the lawless NOR will they receive any. The Law was meant to shut up the mouth of the entire world and make the entire world guilty before God. Obviously that has not yet happened, but we may be getting very very close.
Where was it all headed?
1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care,
So..question?
Since we know that the law produces the opposite intention,because it was weakened by the flesh,why keep trying to keep the old way?
SO THAT sin will become UTTERLY SINFUL in preparation for FINAL JUDGMENT.
Basking in some lesser reality Grace in the midst of the reality of sins indwelling presence is not what God has in Mind.
His Intention is to MAKE sin become utterly sinful in preparation for THE GREAT DAY OF WRATH.
Paul upheld the Law for many stated reasons including making one aware of the presence of indwelling sin and the evil of lawlessness that is with us all.
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Yes, but this does not mean that the lawlessness has departed our flesh.
[/size][/font]
EXACTLY...so LET IT HAPPEN by applying the Law which HAS this intention! By speaking against it or detracting it we may only be postponing the inevitable intention of God.
[/size][/font]
You just cited another reason directly above.
Sin consciousness results in being DIVIDED from SIN which is also a part of the real working of the Law.
[/size][/font]
Where did you get that idea? Included in the Law is the command to love our neighbors as ourselves. It is sheer idiocy to 'throw out' the Law on that basis alone. This axiom is the fulcrum of the Law, and YES, when 'we' as believers DO THAT we also fulfill the full requirements of the Law in ourselves. So no, it's not just Jesus that could fulfill the Law. That is an antinomian fairytale.
[/size][/font]
The Law is The Word of God. It's not going away anytime soon nor should it.
[/size][/font]
It might light upon you someday that the covenant of the Law was against the lawless who are 'with' mankind. Mankind and the Lawless are not the same entities.
Mankind has LAWLESS ENTITIES with them for whom the O.C. Law was and remains against. And yes, christians still commit murder and express lawlessness everyday.
[/size][/font]
Obviously the Law has not done it's working in you yet. Though you may claim Christ which I certainly wouldn't hold against you, you try and pit the Law as being against Gods Words. There is no variance between the O.T. and the N.T. They are both vital and both required.
Fortunately the O.T. Law continues to do its work regardless of what people do with same. Its working has been put in play by God and work it does.
[/size][/font]
Grace was not meant for the lawless NOR will they receive any. The Law was meant to shut up the mouth of the entire world and make the entire world guilty before God. Obviously that has not yet happened, but we may be getting very very close.
SO THAT sin will become UTTERLY SINFUL in preparation for FINAL JUDGMENT.
Basking in some lesser reality Grace in the midst of the reality of sins indwelling presence is not what God has in Mind.
His Intention is to MAKE sin become utterly sinful in preparation for THE GREAT DAY OF WRATH.
I say POUR IT ON baby! I LOVE THE LAW!
enjoy!
squint
That was wordy and creative,,thank you for your reply.
You are welcome to walk under as much law as you like..
It wont do anything,,but hey..I respect your right to try..
I prefer this..
Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
Ps,as far as Paul upholding the law,,he also said this..
Galatians 2:19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.
Hmmm.sounds like one cant live for God under the old way..the law..
Looks llike we to died to the law,and we can not bear fruit under the law..
Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
We are to go to the whole of Pauls inspired scripture,not just pluck out one verse. PS..nothing you said here negates my post.
Thanks.
Last edited by pinetree; 30th January 2009 at 01:19 AM.
p.s. cause I see Paul hurrying to celebrate the feast days, encouraging the keeping of the passover, not breaking the traditions of the elders and other things, but yet I see him (appearing to be) saying other things about the feast days and food/drink. Paul seems to be confused at times.
p.p.s. i reject salvation by works, but the first two are perfectly acceptable.
Didn't Jesus tell his disciples that whoever disobeyed any of the law or taught others not to keep the law (the times and the seasons and the law of the Levites, moses and the hope of the conditional covenant) Till all be fulfilled
Matt 5:17-20
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Part of the deuteronomic law of the conditional old covenant was also the curses and judgment of the law which Christ also came to fulfill. The Babylonian siege and judgment was based on Deut 29. Daniel confesses this fact in his prayer of Dan 9. Deut 30 represents the circumcision of the Heart through the New Covenant of God's Spirit indwelling the heart and the growth of the number of sons of God beyond the numbers of those of the old covenant. Deut 32 then describes the end condition of the people of the old covenant and calls the end of those people in Deut 32:20 and 32:42 as well as Dan 10:14 and thus the end of the old covenant.
Just before his ascension the disciples ask him (the Risen eternal, ever present Lord) if he was going to now restore the kingdom to Israel. I think Perhaps the disciples had in mind a kingdom like was under Joshua when they could posess their land in Peace and prosperity and Peace would rule even within the bounds of Judea. However, this question does not demand that the question was based on accurate knowledge or assumption; as they may have been wondering if that was his intentions, since Israel was being taught by the rabbi's for several centuries that the Messiah would come to rule Israel of the old covenant.
The disciples themselves had previously asked when the end of the age would come with regards to the destruction of the 2nd temple. (Matt 24:3) They had previously been taught that the kingdom of God would not come with observation, but it would be (is) within them.
Jesus answerd their question in Acts 1 to counter perhaps what they were wondering about or contemplating.
Jesus told them it was not for them to KNOW the times and the seasons.
What times and seasons was Jesus talking about? Answer: The times and seasons of the Levitical law of Moses!! Now, the word "know" is that of experiential knowledge; thus it was not for them to know all the times and seasons .... BUT they would experience the Holy Sprint which came at Pentecost.
Jesus was Crucified at Passover, Resurrected during the firstfruits and Gave the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in opposition/fulfillment to the law on Mt Sinai.
There are some who teach that the fall feasts are to be fulfilled in the future, and others that they are fullfilled during the years of the judgment of the temple system and the escape of the Christians to Pella.
Thus, this would account for the sometimes dichotomy of what Paul as a jew was saying. He kept the law and taught fellow Jews to keep the observance of the 'times and seasons' till all be fulfilled including the judgment prophecied in Deut 32.
I understand that a Messianic view is different, and this isn't meant to inflame, but to cause to consider that Christ has come in the flesh and in his second advent via His resurrection of the dead... and his coming in the clouds in the fall festival of late fall 66 AD.
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
Last edited by Notrash; 31st January 2009 at 08:07 PM.
i think notrash may be a preterist.... (to some degree at least.)
Steve
p.s. ddub.. i agree, no matter which way its twisted, the commandments jesus explicity gives to believers are still from the Torah... they may be repeated but they are still Torah.
i mean when Paul went to the apostles in Acts 21, Romans had already been written, so when the apostles asked him to show his torah keeping by offering a blood sacrifice, why did he not just tell them to get stuffed as we aren't under law but grace. (after all he had already penned this comment.)
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blessed is the one coming in the name of ha’shem - בּרוּךְ הַבָּא בְּשֵׁם יְיָ
Now to Him who is able to keep you from falling..... be glory, majesty, dominion and authority for ever. (Jude) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i think notrash may be a preterist.... (to some degree at least.)
I ascribe to a historical/contextual/literary (not literal) inductive and covenental approach to understanding the bible in light of the history of Gods world and gods mankind. That approach with respect to considering the conversational dialogues that Christ had with his disciples and including other scriptures does lead me to what is called by others a 'preterist' understanding and covenant theology.
So it shows that much?...
We sometimes overlook that the writings and scriptures are records of human conversations and dialogues and the interactions that the Living God had with man while he walked the earth. They are not neccessarily words and instructions to be taken out of the contexts of those conversations to make doctines and applications from.
__________________ One ironic tragedy of futurism/dispensationalism is that it's rabbi's/teachers take a prophecy about the Messiah's confirmation and establishment of The Everlasting covenant of Mercy, Love and Life and twist it to impose an interpretation of a political leader in a figurative red suit with horns who makes, then breaks a treaty. In doing so, they internally side with the spirit which denies, minimizes Christ's having come in the flesh and the centrality of the Everlasting covenant of Mercy .. aka Edenic covenant, and "new" unconditional covenant.
I'm a little confused here. How can you say no more law, then claim to be under the New Covenant which has the law at it's heart, and as it's basis?
God Bless!
hello..
I am a gentile,which laws,sabbaths,etc do I keep?
In fact,if we are all one,I cant observe the law,it was abolished so that Jew and gentile become one..
Ephesians2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law (3551 nomos) of commandments (1785 entole, same as,Matt 15:3 a commandment of God) contained in ordinances (1378 dogma), so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
What is is this love of the law..look who it was for.. 1 Timothy 1:9
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
Please...no more law! No more ministry of death! 
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