Theistic evolution

oldwiseguy · #21 19th February 2009, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by shernren

I think you did about as good a job as Richard Dawkins would explaining the meaning of Christmas ...

I knew someone would find that humorous.

owg

Mallon · #22 19th February 2009, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by oldwiseguy

This is exactly what happens. Godidit. Evolution holds that the creature can change itself using it own resources. My whole arguement is for changes (if any) at the hand of God. Apart from God there isn't any. What TE's have done is borrow the scientific model of change, Evolution, and applied it to God's creation.

owg

With respect, owg, you really don't understand evolution. The individual creature itself does not change. The population to which it belongs changes over time.
Regardless, I appreciate your argument, but I don't think it is with merit. We all acknowledge that nothing happens apart from God, but that does not mean proximate causes -- which science seeks to explain -- are not also at work. You yourself rely on proximate causation every day, when you turn your car key and expect the engine to start, for example. That doesn't mean God is not involved, even though the owner's manual doesn't make explicit reference to Him. Nor does is mean He isn't involved.
I would really recommend you watch this series of short videos for a better understanding of the integration of science and Christian faith:
http://www.blog.beyondthefirmament.c...cation-page-1/

gluadys · #23 19th February 2009, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by oldwiseguy

My point is that so called natural processes aren't natural at all but supernatural and are purposefully guided by God.

I suppose it is a matter of perspective. Augustine made exactly the opposite conclusion---that all supernatural processes are really natural.

We admit that what is contrary to the ordinary course of human experience is commonly spoken of as contrary to nature. .... But God, the Author and Creator of all natures does nothing contrary to nature; for what is done by Him who appoints all natural order and measure and proportion must be natural in every case.

~~Reply to Faustus the Manichean 26.3

Although you and Augustine seem to be poles apart, I think you are actually agreeing with each other. You call all God's doings supernatural--even those we ordinarily call natural; and Augustine calls all God's doings natural--even those we ordinarily call supernatural.

Where you agree, it seems to me, is that in God a distinction of natural and supernatural is unwarranted. Whether natural or supernatural, it is all God's creative and purposeful work.

That is something any TE would agree with.

gluadys · #24 19th February 2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by oldwiseguy

This is exactly what happens. Godidit. Evolution holds that the creature can change itself using it own resources.

But the creature's resources come from God. And its use of those resources is guided by God. It is empowered by God to adapt, just as an individual is empowered by God to mature. I don't see the problem here.

Chesterton · #25 19th February 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by gluadys

I suppose it is a matter of perspective. Augustine made exactly the opposite conclusion---that all supernatural processes are really natural.
We admit that what is contrary to the ordinary course of human experience is commonly spoken of as contrary to nature. .... But God, the Author and Creator of all natures does nothing contrary to nature; for what is done by Him who appoints all natural order and measure and proportion must be natural in every case.

~~Reply to Faustus the Manichean 26.3

Although you and Augustine seem to be poles apart, I think you are actually agreeing with each other. You call all God's doings supernatural--even those we ordinarily call natural; and Augustine calls all God's doings natural--even those we ordinarily call supernatural.

Where you agree, it seems to me, is that in God a distinction of natural and supernatural is unwarranted. Whether natural or supernatural, it is all God's creative and purposeful work.

That is something any TE would agree with.

I find the words "natural" and "supernatural" so tricky for the Christian. The atheist considers God supernatural, but if God is self-existant and eternal, then really He is the most, or only, "natural" thing there is. Conversely, since the universe is a creation (in an eternal sense; an artifice), every cloud and every blade of grass you see is "supernatural". Depending on what you're trying to say, the words are almost interchangeable.

oldwiseguy · #26 19th February 2009, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by gluadys

But the creature's resources come from God. And its use of those resources is guided by God. It is empowered by God to adapt, just as an individual is empowered by God to mature. I don't see the problem here.

Well, maybe we are all skinning the same cat (with apologies to the cat).

owg

shernren · #27 19th February 2009, 07:59 PM

crawfish · #28 20th February 2009, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by oldwiseguy

My point is that so called natural processes aren't natural at all but supernatural and are purposefully guided by God.

I think there is a general misunderstanding of "natural". All it means is predictable and testable - something we can depend on. God may be pulling us down towards the center of the earth every second of every day, but we can count on the fact that we aren't going to be spontaneously flung into space.

Supernatural, on the other hand, is where God breaks those predictable rules and does something out of the ordinary. You can't test for them. You can't repeat them. They are delivered at God's discretion, through God's grace.

The actual nature of "natural", therefore, is irrelevant.