Feel free to disagree but the 12 steps are advertised. The majority of treatment centers use the 12 steps. Every new "recovery" program from addiction to finger twiddling models themselves after the 12 steps.
The statement most people who leave AA have probably not thoroughly followed their path is grounded in pure speculation and based on poor observation.
Many people who leave AA were court ordered to attend a set number of meetings. Even those busted with minor possession of marijuana. Individuals who exhibit no obsession with alcohol are court ordered to AA. People with mental disorders, such as myself, leave AA because the program is not conducive to recovery from bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Many of those individuals find themselves in addiction treatment prior to understanding the underlying mental disorder.
People leave the program for many reasons. Some because they define themselves as not being an alcoholic (as per the Big Book is how it's done), some because they met their court ordered requirement, some because they find that treatment for their mental disorder is superior to AA, some because they find other recovery methods, some because they do not wish to be sober and others because they cannot follow any path to sobriety at that time.
The attitude of declaring most people who leave one's chosen method of recovery as that of failure is just pure childishness with a touch of envy.
First I am not claiming to be a pro with AA, but with what I have observed, I enjoy this discussion with you.
Many people who leave AA were court ordered to attend a set number of meetings.
I have found the people who are going to meetings or even rehab for the courts or for anything else except for themselves, will most likely result in relapse. Speaking for myself, I would find any excuse to get angry and get loaded. Finding recovery, and doing it for myself ..taking full responsibility for my actions so I can become a better mother, wife or person. With all the drama going on in rehab's or even AA, or any recovery module, if you aren't focused 100% on personal recovery, most likely relapse is in the picture. Addiction is such a powerful obsessive disease, it has to be treated as such.
People with mental disorders, such as myself, leave AA because the program is not conducive to recovery from bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Many of those individuals find themselves in addiction treatment prior to understanding the underlying mental disorder.
This is called Duel Diagnosis. In order to define the problem, the addict needs to detox, or get sober enough to really see what is going on. Sometimes it is the drugs/alcohol causing the problems. Once the person is sober ( or even things show up before hand) they need to be referred to a professional Psychiatrist to be assessed. If there is a Dual Diagnosis both treatments of AA/ Rehab/ or any recovery program along with ongoing treatment from the Psychiatrist is recommended. Dual Diagnosis is very common, many have self medicated trying to feel better.
The attitude of declaring most people who leave one's chosen method of recovery as that of failure is just pure childishness with a touch of envy.
Just like most anything, I feel it has to go from your head to your heart.
There are many who have tons of knowledge from the books. But the light bulb moments of it really sinking in, I feel is a spiritual awaking of the heart.
I left a rehab 20 years ago with all the knowledge they taught me. I really wasn't convinced I was a addict so I relapsed and in time (18 years) I hit my bottom ( well I almost died) At this time my heart was open, my hands were reaching, and my whole Physical..Spiritual..Mental being was so broken I had seen the end of myself. Ready and open to receive what others have found in order to live. And of coarse it was Christ who took me out of the dark horrible hole I got myself into. Many go different paths to find recovery, Many die from the disease.
So the foundation of most rehabs is AA, NA ect. tools of recovery. The 12 steps are a guide to self awareness, forgiveness, and taking responsibility for ones own actions. It is healing of a sick brain, thought and actions. It is a support group of people helping people.
It does not claim to be a cure all, but it is a group of laymen who found a way to live once again.
Just like anything in life... nothing is a guarantee/someone,something can always let us down we have no control over that... Only Christ is the true foundation of Hope in order to open ourselves up to love one another and find the peace of knowing He is in control.
Last edited by BlessEwe; 6th June 2009 at 03:04 PM.
"Childishness" and "envy" strike me as pretty strong. Double-check the Big Book and I think you'll see that from Day One AA has acknowledged that people have gotten sober - in every sense of that word - by other means than 12 steps. As for "failure," most of us will failed AA at least once, but are counted as successes by ourselves and our friends because we finally "got it." As I indicated in my initial reply back on Page One, where a statistician might see an 80% failure rate, we see a 100% success.
I agree with you about the court orders. I don't know of any effective treatment for addiction that can be forced on someone.
For myself, and I think for I speak for most AAs, if someone gets sober through Rational Recovery, psychotherapy, gestalt - you name it - I'm as happy for them as if they did it our way. Even in AA we say, "Whatever works!"
First I am not claiming to be a pro with AA, but with what I have observed, I enjoy this discussion with you.
I have found the people who are going to meetings or even rehab for the courts or for anything else except for themselves, will most likely result in relapse. Speaking for myself, I would find any excuse to get angry and get loaded. Finding recovery, and doing it for myself ..taking full responsibility for my actions so I can become a better mother, wife or person. With all the drama going on in rehab's or even AA, or any recovery module, if you aren't focused 100% on personal recovery, most likely relapse is in the picture. Addiction is such a powerful obsessive disease, it has to be treated as such.
This is called Duel Diagnosis. In order to define the problem, the addict needs to detox, or get sober enough to really see what is going on. Sometimes it is the drugs/alcohol causing the problems. Once the person is sober ( or even things show up before hand) they need to be referred to a professional Psychiatrist to be assessed. If there is a Dual Diagnosis both treatments of AA/ Rehab/ or any recovery program along with ongoing treatment from the Psychiatrist is recommended. Dual Diagnosis is very common, many have self medicated trying to feel better.
Just like most anything, I feel it has to go from your head to your heart.
There are many who have tons of knowledge from the books. But the light bulb moments of it really sinking in, I feel is a spiritual awaking of the heart.
I left a rehab 20 years ago with all the knowledge they taught me. I really wasn't convinced I was a addict so I relapsed and in time (18 years) I hit my bottom ( well I almost died) At this time my heart was open, my hands were reaching, and my whole Physical..Spiritual..Mental being was so broken I had seen the end of myself. Ready and open to receive what others have found in order to live. And of coarse it was Christ who took me out of the dark horrible hole I got myself into. Many go different paths to find recovery, Many die from the disease.
So the foundation of most rehabs is AA, NA ect. tools of recovery. The 12 steps are a guide to self awareness, forgiveness, and taking responsibility for ones own actions. It is healing of a sick brain, thought and actions. It is a support group of people helping people.
It does not claim to be a cure all, but it is a group of laymen who found a way to live once again.
Just like anything in life... nothing is a guarantee/someone,something can always let us down we have no control over that... Only Christ is the true foundation of Hope in order to open ourselves up to love one another and find the peace of knowing He is in control.
I appreciate your response and agree with your statement about personal responsibility. That is a phrase often unheard of in some clubs I attended but a major focus in others. AA is a diverse experience from one group to the next.
You are correct in that the 12 steps are more than just getting sober but a complete change in how one lives their life.
My problem with the notion of "thoroughly followed our path" is the idea that it is an absolute guarantee. In a program that exemplifies a lowering of the ego (as alcoholics are viewed as very egocentric) and lack of control for those of us with severe depressive and mental disorders where there was a near complete lack of ego and true lack of control, i.e. choice, of depressive and psychotic symptoms experience in an AA clubhouse of those who lack experience of such things can actually be detrimental. Especially the notions of one drink, one drunk and the obsessive/compulsion basis of addiction theory of AA.
I'm not disparaging AA. I know of a great group, my original home group, that I routinely recommend individuals who come into the bookstore where I work looking for the Big Book or other materials who need help. It's my experience in multiple groups where an old school mentality that the 12 steps can help everything just does not hold true. I not only use my own experience as an example but the many people in the hospital who suffered from true issues of lack of control with psychotic and depressive symptoms that no amount of 4th stepping will help. Actually, the 4th step is a very hard and possibly damaging step for those who suffered so long from manic depression to take.
I support Alcoholics Anonymous. I also support the concept that it is not the absolute nor the only method for individuals with addiction to help change their life. A concept I wish was more readily accepted in the many groups I attended rather than assign individuals who did not follow the 12 steps to doom.
Originally Posted by BobW188
"Childishness" and "envy" strike me as pretty strong. Double-check the Big Book and I think you'll see that from Day One AA has acknowledged that people have gotten sober - in every sense of that word - by other means than 12 steps. As for "failure," most of us will failed AA at least once, but are counted as successes by ourselves and our friends because we finally "got it." As I indicated in my initial reply back on Page One, where a statistician might see an 80% failure rate, we see a 100% success.
I agree with you about the court orders. I don't know of any effective treatment for addiction that can be forced on someone.
For myself, and I think for I speak for most AAs, if someone gets sober through Rational Recovery, psychotherapy, gestalt - you name it - I'm as happy for them as if they did it our way. Even in AA we say, "Whatever works!"
Childish is a strong word and I almost backtracked from it but I cannot ignore my experience. Watching many old timers use people who stopped coming to meetings, for whatever reason, as an example of people who failed rather than trying to understand that they did not need the program or that they actually moved to a different group opened my eyes to the carelessness of statements made in meetings for individuals to uphold themselves and their own ego.
Also, I agree completely that treatment can hardly be forced. No matter what program an individual chooses they need to be willing to make that commitment in whatever program they choose.
I hope I do not appear to be disparaging the program as a whole but I can only go by my own experience and the shared experience of others who suffered from mental disorders, resorted to a self medication and then found themselves in groups that did more harm than good to realize that there is more than one way. That declaring that people who do not "thoroughly follow our path" sounds more like individuals trying to self justify when it is unnecessary.
It may be that out of five of the six regular groups I attended that my experience has been shaped in a way different from many others as well as my experience in attending DBPA meetings. There was a stark contrast in philsophy between the AA groups and the DBPA groups.
Great point. All of the suggestions I hear at meetings are definitely helpful tips, but the 12 Steps, as they are outlined in the Big Book, is what I am doing differently this time.
Trish
Then you won't go wrong. Many newcomers (and a few old-timers), aren't told, or seem some how unaware that the 12-steps are the program.
As for failure rates, when I started attending AA in 86' I had the devil of a time understanding how everything fell together and I had a series of slips in the first year (6?). Once I was able to comprehend what I was supposed to be doing to stay sober (HP, steps, meeting, helping newcomers, sponser etc) I was able to acheive and maintain my sobriety. I've had 2 slips in 22 years (both 1 night, both years ago) these happened because I stopped going to meetings, and stopped working the Steps.
So I guess my failure rate is what, 88%? Yet I've only drank 8 times in the last 23 years and those were due to my own not working the program (No fault of AA there).
The bottom line for me is "It works if you work it".
Gary L.
__________________ You must be the change you want to see in the world.
Why is it that Alcoholics Anonymous only has a success rate of 5%? Meaning that only one in twenty people who go to AA will actually stop their drinking.
Just wondering...
It's silly to judge the success rate of AA by including those people who don't actually adopt the program of recovery, or who have gone to only a handful of meetings in their lives, or who don't really want to stop drinking.
And it's notoriously difficult to take a valid survey of folks regarding their disease, when an essential component of that disease is self-deception.
I've been clean over 22 years, and I've never seen anyone fail to stop using if they adopted the program of recovery outlined in the 12 steps.
__________________ The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you....For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink..."
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him...
John, Ch. 6
Last edited by chilehed; 17th January 2010 at 10:55 AM.
I also see that the rate of success has changed, as the stress on the 12 steps dwindles so did the healthy recovery(long and fruitful recovery). Drugs and so few treatment centers has also not help. But for God's Grace,..
I think it would take documentation of AA people, research on how they are doing. and much more to determine the outcome of success for AA. After all, it is Anonymous.
__________________
Isaiah 41:10 “…do not fear, for I am with you,
do not be afraid, for I am your God; I will
strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold
you with my victorious right hand.”
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Why is it that Alcoholics Anonymous only has a success rate of 5%? Meaning that only one in twenty people who go to AA will actually stop their drinking.
Just wondering...
MY BROTHER,
Actually, all the "guesstamates" based on surveys of A.A. members give figures between 30-40% maintaining sobriety for over 5 years through utilizing the tools provided by the Program--the primary one, of course, being surrendering the addiction to God and following His guidance in deal with it on the ground.
Even that figure--30-40%--is, of course, low. Why not 100%? you ask. For the same reason 100% of those claiming to be "christians" will never enter the Kingdom--a lack of the willingness to completely surrender one's ego to the Cross, give up the old life of living death, and to change, according to the Holy Spirit's blueprint, into a new creation.
In other words, in non-christian terms, primarily a refusal to work Steps 3, 6, 7, and 11.
Were these critical Steps worked honestly and thoroughly, the recovery rate would indeed by 100%! "It works [only] if you work it!"
ABBA'S FOOL, ephraim
__________________
Lo, i have gathered up all of my thoughts and cannot recall anything good before Thee . . .
except the fact that i know no other God than Thee. --Saint Ephraim the Syrian LORD JESUS CHRIST, HUMBLE LAMB OF GOD, have mercy on me, an arrogant sinner!
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Unfortunately I do believe that the current recovery rate in AA is very low. But that is not because the 12 steps do not work, it is because few people apply the 12 steps thoroughly and honestly. It's like buying bought a bottle of aspirin and never taking the aspirin. Many people who attend AA meetings, never even try to apply the solution, but they say that AA doesn't work.
I find this to be very true. My bf is an alcoholic. He was sober for about six months and relapsed. In that time he did three steps.
After relapse he met a woman and man that really challenged his perceptions. The whole concept of "don't do your steps to fast" was what enabled my bf to be able to be lazy and relapse. The male out of the couple said to him, "yes get your steps done.....how long do you want to stay sick". He shared his experiences and how doing the steps diligently and thoroughly has been a factor in being sober for 26 years without a relapse.
When my bf did things thoroughly, HONESTLY and consistently his perceptions changed and in turn his whole life. He still has some things that need work which is to be expected. Half of the population does, alcoholic or not. It has made all the difference.
ABBA'S FOOL,
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