Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever. With these great attributes of God, its hard to imagine how evil ever came to be, that is as we know it to be. Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error. We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker! Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer. (rebellion is no doubt an imperfection) Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible! Even men never quarrel with their tools! We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future. U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way! According to an Omniscient God FREE WILL doesn't exist.
So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.
My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.
This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....
And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him
will if GOD created evil why did he cast the devil away from the kingdom of heaven!!!hello do you read your bible and you said it again yourself gave the answer.
that the devil indeed tested the good but it never worked as they went against evil and the power of good always gets the better of evil!!!
if you read revaltions the NT you would indeed know that he will cast and put an end of satans evil once and for all!!!
the fact now is when?and also when the coming of the son of man jesus christ comes the sheep will be one side the good and the goat evil turned away and there will only be day and no night how cool
what a thought i hate darkness so i am obvious elite from evil!!!
jja, you havent thought about this carefully..take your time and try to analize this, where did that 'evil thought' came from? From nowhere like a spritual big bang or something?
Think about free will, you actually implying that satan had a free will. But you do not consider the predestination and omniscience of God. As we know God, he created everything and knows everything perfectly well. He knows the future as vividly as he knows the past. We ussually sing every now and then that everything happens at Gods will, or when something bad happens we say it was God's will but we never take time to think deeply about that 'God will.' We accually mean that everything that happens whether good or evil, happens as God had planned it to be, and I guess we are right. And mark this, we dont have a choice we cant think otherwise about God. If the things that happen 'suprises' him, then he isn't omnient which means he is not God. So everything happens either per Gods will or by Gods will!
Consider the 4 attributes of GOD, Omnipotent (all powerful) Omnipresent, (is every where at every time) Omniscient, (all knowing) and eternal which means was there from beginning and will be there forever.
He was there before the beginning actually.
Genesis talks of our beginning, not God's.
Originally Posted by cksilas
Most people believe that evil (devil) is an arch RIVAL of good (God). Such a believe is illogical when you consider an all powerful God, all knowing and perfect God. Which means everything he does is PERFECT with not even a slight error.
Everything that God created was good, or very good, including Lucifer (Satan) who was once an angel of light. God did not create imperfections and does not make mistakes. But he gave free will to mankind, and must have done so for the angels too, or Satan could not have chosen to rebel against him. Which he did. He wanted to be greater than Almighty God and led a rebellion against him. Obviously he didn't win (a created being fighting against its creator,) and so he could not be allowed to remain in heaven. As the devil could not beat God, he decided to try to turn his creation against him.
It was possible for him to do this, because God gave us freewill. Free will means "you choose". God created men and women, gave us life, a body, a mind, a soul, gifts, desires etc, but did not demand that we use all these for him, or to worship him. Our minds and wills did not arrive pre-programmed; if they had, no problem. We'd worship God bcause we didn't know any different; because God was pulling our strings and making us praise him. There would have been no sin, no OT law and sacrifices, no Jesus, no sickness or death. Everyone would live for ever, because sickness and death came into this world when sin did.
Originally Posted by cksilas
We (esp. Christian) believe that devil was God creature. Then again we say that this creature rebelled against his maker!
GOD creature? Do you mean GOOD creature? The devil never was God, he was an angel of light, he was created by God. He did rebel against his maker because he was given a choice.
Originally Posted by cksilas
Check this out,what was made with PERFECTION turned to be IMPERFECT and rebelled against his designer.
He didn't turn out to be imperfect - like "here's one I made earlier to see if it would come out right". The devil was good at one point, like all God's creation. He CHOSE to try and see if he could become greater or more powerful than God. He wasn't satisfied with who he was - he wanted the top job!
Originally Posted by cksilas
Such a believe is not only illogical but means that God made an error in his creation-which is not possible!
Exactly, which is why I don't believe it happened, or even could have happened, that way.
Originally Posted by cksilas
We forget that nothing surprises God cause he knows the future.
Right again! He knew we would sin, he knew the world would become evil, rotten, rebellious and cause him a lot of heartache. But he also knew that he was going to send Jesus to become a sacrifice and take all our sin upon himself. That is why Peter calls him "the Lamb who was chosen from the creation of the world." (1 Peter 1:20)
God knew that all this would happen if he gave us free will- as you say, nothing surprises him, he knows the future. Neverthless he went ahead and gave us free will, because he wanted us to love, serve and worship him because we chose to, not because we had to.
Originally Posted by cksilas
U cant impress God by being too righteous, he made u that way!
None of us can impress God by anything we do. He is the creator we are the created. He is perfect, we are not. We cannot do anything to earn our salvation, get back into his good books give ourselves eternal life or go to heaven.
He loves us, and did not wait for us to become good enough before he died for us; that was his Grace, not our achievement. And as our Father, I believe he can be pleased with us and proud of us, but we can do nothing to impress him.
Originally Posted by cksilas
My argument is evident in the bible, we can see this when God sent an evil spirit 2 deceive Saul (1 Sam 16:23), also when demons asks permission God 2 test Jobs faith. Then their is this part in 2 Samuel chapter 24, where God 'incites' David to take census, but the repetition of the same event in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says, 'Satan caused David...' Which means that God can use Satan to fulfill his wishes.
Yes but just because in those days the writers believed that everything - good and evil - came from God, it doesn't mean it did. That was how they understood it. Because otherwise you are saying that God who is love, light, Holy, pure, truth etc etc, could think up and then create something (the devil) which was evil and totally wicked. I read recently that all things are created twice - first they are conceived in the minds of their creators, then they are actually created and materialise. This means that a pure and Holy God who IS love, would have to dream up hatred, wickedness, evil and do on and then put all those things into one being - the devil. No way Jose!
God can use Satan to fulfil his wishes. Look at the cross, was it something that men decided to do, prompted by the devil and nothing to do with God at all; or was it something that God always knew would happen, planned would happen and prophesied throughout the OT, at Jesus' birth and throughout his life that it would happen? Of course Satan wanted to kill the Son of God. What an achievement that would have been, and what a trgedy for us. But it wasn't a tragedy, God knew it was going to happen and that he would raise him from the dead. He wanted this to happen because the cross was how Satan has been defeated.
Originally Posted by cksilas
This evidence clearly shows that presence of evil in the world is part of Gods design to balance things in nature...just the way he created light n darkness, pain n pleasure, flowers n thorns, birds n snakes, butterflies n scorpions,....
No, God created everything good. Even snakes and scorpions were probably harmless once. Creation started to go bad, decay and die at the time that in entered the world. Adam was given a job by God, in Genesis, to look after the garden, the creation. He had even been told to name all the animals. When Adam messed up, the creation was messed up too.
Originally Posted by cksilas
And if God absolutely had nothing to do with evil, then why call him
I thought you've just been arguing that God created evil? In any case, he loves us so much that he could not just let us die in our sin and spend eternity without him and without knowing him, however much we deserved it. Evil was not his will or his design, but he still rescued us from it.
__________________ "My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
Didn't the Greek's ascribe some of those attributes to God, like omnicience?
There is a tenuous connection between the one aka Lucifer, and Satan the devil. Perhaps God changed Lucifer to "adversary" because he became just that. Why not an alter(ed) ego to go with it.
The reason Lucifer sought equality with God, and grasped at that equality, is that he believed he had a right to it because of his special relationship with God. It was only after God saw what had happened to his kingdom that he 'deemed' the act 'sin'. Lucifer had 'fallen short' of what was expected of him, his very purpose for being.
I have a snag to throw into this discussion which is nothing but the truth of it.
Here it is
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Pay special attention to this truth for what you think doesn't change it one iota.
It says that all things were created by Him, including principalities and powers. This includes the heavens and the earth. It says that they were all created, FOR HIM. As was said Everything that He made was very good. Very Good for it's purpose whether it be good or evil. It was made for him with His purpose in mind.
Nothing can consist in the creation without the divine inference of God.
These verses prove without a doubt that God created evil for His purpose.
The definition of Consist,
1)to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set a) to bid to stand by, [set up] 1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin; 2) to place b)to make firm, fix establish 1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place 2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety 3)to establish a thing, cause it to stand a)to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything c) to set or place in a balance 1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed) 2) to stand a) to stand by or near 1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm a) of the foundation of a building b) to stand 1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared 2) to be of a steadfast mind 3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver
I have a snag to throw into this discussion which is nothing but the truth of it.
Here it is
Pay special attention to this truth for what you think doesn't change it one iota.
It says that all things were created by Him, including principalities and powers. This includes the heavens and the earth. It says that they were all created, FOR HIM. As was said Everything that He made was very good. Very Good for it's purpose whether it be good or evil. It was made for him with His purpose in mind.
Nothing can consist in the creation without the divine inference of God.
These verses prove without a doubt that God created evil for His purpose.
It doesn't prove anything of the sort.
At some point in his creation, God created the angels - his messengers. They were ALL good and were made by him and for him. Even Lucifer (another name for Satan).
Lucfer tried to start a rebellion against God, he wanted to overthrow him and become more powerful than him. He persuaded many angels to join him in this plan. They failed - obviously, no one is greater than God - and were all thrown out of heaven. At that point, before man was created, there were fallen angels on the earth. Satan and his angels have been opposing God ever since and trying to turn his creation (us) against him.
God did not create evil. He would have to have been a masochist to have done so, and most certainly not a God of love, holiness and purity.
Like I said, think about it; could the One who hates sin have creted sin? Can love conceive of and create hatred? Could a perfect, loving, merciful, gracious, compassionate God choose to make something that was completely the opposite and alien to his nature?
If Jesus said that we can tell a tree by its fruits, and a fig tree cannot bear thorns, don't you think this applies to God as well? Because why would he ask us to do something which he was incapable of doing himself?
__________________ "My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
Created Principalities and powers, For Him. It is all about the glory of God, not man for this is what Christ did with His ministry, Glorify the Father as we are given to do also.
admittedly, I haven't read the entire post, but I have a related question and since I have seen many posts about this topic, it's time to ask....how does one create sin? I mean isn't that like creating a breath, I mean, it is a natural process, we can imagine creating lungs an air, but a breath is much different. Breath is the result of a natural process, how can I create breath? It just exists as the result of things that were created. Isn't sin a similar idea?
GOD CREATED EVIL, Period! 
I thought you've just been arguing that God created evil? In any case, he loves us so much that he could not just let us die in our sin and spend eternity without him and without knowing him, however much we deserved it. Evil was not his will or his design, but he still rescued us from it. 
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