So how does a perfect God allow imperfection to exist in His creation. That makes less sense than what you are trying to refute. IF and He did know, why did He allow it? That is the question which we will never know until the day of redemption. I for one will not attempt to say what God didn't do or does for He is the one controlling. Not us.
So how does a perfect God allow imperfection to exist in His creation.
I don't know for sure, but I would say that it's because he is love, and loves us.
God created Adam and Eve, they turned away from him - basically said, "thanks but no thanks, we don't need to listen to you."
He could have destroyed them there and then, before they'd begun to have children, but he didn't. If he had, they'd have died in their sin, spiritually seperated from God with no chance of repentance. God wasn't pleased with them, and drove them out of paradise, but they still had a chance to repent and turn back to him.
Throughout the OT the Jews disobeyed God, followed evil and broke his covenant. God gave them opportunities to repent and turn back to him, and some of them did for a while. But those who continuously rebelled were punished. The nation had many, many opportunities to turn back to God. He did not destroy them all the very moment they began to sin, he gave them many chances.
And it's the same with us; God does not destroy people the moment they reject Jesus, or sin. He gives people a chance to repent, come to him and accept what he did for them in Jesus. And if someone refuses, he keeps trying to reach them. Peter said that God is patient with us, not wanting anyone to perish but eveyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:19) There will come a point when that person will die - everyone does. And if they have still refused to choose life and Jesus, God honours that choice. But that doesn't mean he wanted that person to go to hell. (And that's another thing, people DO go to hell. If God had created evil and MADE people sin just so he could rescue them from it and get glory for himself, wouldn't he make sure that everyone received Jesus and became Christians? Otherwise his plan backfired.)
To be continued.
__________________ "My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
IF and He did know, why did He allow it? That is the question which we will never know until the day of redemption.
That's true, we may never really know. But I would guess it may be because God wanted us, his creation, to love and worship him by choice, not because we were perfect people in a perfect world with no other option.
He could have made us robots; people who worshipped him because we were programmed to, or because he gave us everything and made it difficult for us not to. Remember Job? God told the devil that Job was his righteous servant, and the devil replied, "of course he is, you've given him everything, he's got no reason not to worship you. Try taking everything away from him and see what happens." (Job 1:8-11). Job did suffer greatly for a while but chose to remain faithful to God, even though he had many questions, and was eventually restored and rewarded for it.
When Moses came down Mount Sinai to find the Israelites had made a golden calf, he told them to choose who they were going to serve. Joshua said the same thing, as did Elijah and many of the prophets. Jesus invited people to follow him; he didn't force or make them. God wants people to choose him, to accept his love and follow him because they want to.
Sometimes, my nephews send me 'thank you' cards or letters. It's nice, but I suspect they do so only because they are prompted by their mothers. It's far nicer to receive a note from them completely out of the blue, just because they feel like writing. (Doesn't often happen.)
God wants us to love him, but he will not force anyone, and is willing to take the risk that some will reject him.
Originally Posted by Hismessenger
I for one will not attempt to say what God didn't do or does for He is the one controlling. Not us.
I'm not speaking for God because I understand his mind or have inside information. I've said what I've said because I believe this is consistent with the nature of God as revealed by him in his word.
I keep coming back, again and again, to the words which Jesus spoke;
"if you then, though you are evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him?" (Matthew 7:11). In the same way, if imperfect, human parents love their children enough to give them their freedom, choose their own values (when old enough), partners, careers etc and do not attempt to force them or control what they do; how much more will our perfect heavenly Father do this for us?
God doesn't control us, that's the point.
__________________ "My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
-Amos 3:6b
In OT times they believed that everything - good and evil - came from God.
This is not what James says in his letter:
"every good and perfect gift is from above," (James 1:17)
Evil is neither good nor perfect.
__________________ "My Grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
God is in control. There are many times when God has decreed something and what is the outcome of it. Man will make a "Choice" that brings about what God has ordained to be. Need some examples. I just gave you one with Nebuchadnezzer. How about Pharoah. And then there is Jonah. And then there is Elijah and then.............. Need I go on. Our choices are to the fulfillment of God's devine will. Who then is in control? Man or God.
I am not generally one for this kind of impossible argument, but I have been thinking about this a little recently. Sin is not the existence of something, but the absence of God, as He alone is righteousness. God didn't create darkness, he created light, but in differing quantities. Sin seems to merely be choosing to accept one's own righteousness over God. Not something God would have had to create, and can easily be present in a perfect creature with a free will made in the image of God. Man didn't choose evil to be evil, he just chose himself without understanding the consequences of that decision. God made everything good, including man. He was perfect, an chose to be his own righteousness. Eating from the tree wasn't evil because it was an inherently evil act, it was expected of man to do that (as made obvious by the plan of redemption) but is a result of choosing one's own righteousness over God. Now we see the truly evil consequences of our seemingly okay acts and treat evil as if it were a substance in and of itself that God had to have made, but that seems to be fallacious reasoning. It wasn't the eating of the fruit that was evil, it was the choosing of one's own righteousness over God.
__________________ "[A Templar Knight] is truly a fearless knight, and secure on every side, for his soul is protected by the armor of faith, just as his body is protected by the armor of steel. He is thus doubly-armed, and need fear neither demons nor men."Bernard de Clairvaux, c. 1135, De Laude Novae Militae—In Praise of the New Knighthood
In OT times they believed that everything - good and evil - came from God.
This is not what James says in his letter:
"every good and perfect gift is from above," (James 1:17)
Evil is neither good nor perfect.
Does disaster come to a city,
unless the LORD has done it?
-Amos 3:6b
So that I can understand...
By quoting this small part of Amos, are you saying that disaster coming to a city is evil, and that the Lord did it?
I'm a bit curious, because the OP was saying God created evil....
What you have said in essence is correct. When we are outside of God's will, we are in sin. It doesn't matter if we are doing a good thing or bad thing if it isn't what God had purposed for us to do, it is sin. This is why prayer is so important. So that we can be led in the way of the Father to complete His will. Not asking of ourselves but asking of God for His will in the earth{us}.
hismessenger
Last edited by Hismessenger; 18th March 2009 at 07:43 PM.
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