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  #21  
Unread 17th December 2008, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic View Post
Let me start...

How do we know what books to use as scripture?
from the work of the church(including protestant)

why we know is irrelevant

we KNOW and so now we make use of it...actually the church is an integral part in how we know its the truth...the bible predicts its own popularity...so if the church didn't exist logic suggests the books would have fallen out of popular use

that said the main purpose of prophecy as stated in scripture is to edify the church...if the church doesn't even follow the books it was given as to how it should function and through man made doctrines pervert the meaning of that scripture then while it played its essential role and is essential is still in need of edifying
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  #22  
Unread 17th December 2008, 04:54 PM
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its actually symbolic of gods artist touch...the church which helped establish the scriptures is now in need of the scriptures to reestablish itself

you may call this circular but guess what? infinite is circular
  #23  
Unread 17th December 2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus View Post
The term "Solo Scriptura" was brought up on another thread in conjunction with "Sola Scriptura".
My own definition and view of "Solo" implies Scripture only and not going outside of what is Written while "Sola" means subscribing to both what has been Written and the Oral "traditions" of the ECFs and others that claim they were orally taught by the Apostles themselves.
So I would like to here from other Christians of all denominations on how they view the difference and I would like to quote a verse from Paul:

1 Corinthians 4:6 These-things, yet brethren, I after-figure into myself and Apollos thru/because-of ye, that in us ye may be learning the no above that which hath been Written/gegraptai <1125> (5769), that no one over the one ye may be puffed up against the other.
Going back to the first council in Jerusalem, we find what they did in order to solve a dispute (two contrary teachings).

1) They debated the dispute.

2) They used tradition in a positive (must do it-follow law of Moses) and negative way (can't do it).

3) They solo scripture, in effect rejecting tradition.

4) But, because of brotherly love, they make a nod to Moses.

5) Then they agree.

6) In their letter, they again say it seemed "good to us" and to the Holy Spirit.

So, they understood tradition, had brotherly love, but solo scripture. Without solo scripture, they would have mixed the old and new or the body would be divided within their lifetimes.

Sleep on it, does X still seem good to you and the Holy Spirit?

To take an example today of, say, baptism, full or partial immersion, adult or baby. We'd discuss it. Search scripture. Consider fruit. Consider tradition. If we left it there, we'd end up with contradiction. Instead, we would eventually have to and be forced to solo scripture. Then, make a nod to tradition, try to stay in fellowship, sleep on it. If it is good to us and the Holy Spirit, then we would issue a letter.
  #24  
Unread 17th December 2008, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Trento View Post
How do we know which books belong in the Bible?
Moot to the issue at hand, but, yes, we do.




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  #25  
Unread 17th December 2008, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Trento View Post
The problem with Solo scriptura bottom line is that it places scripture above the Jesus body the church and we as individual members of it, with Jesus as the head, subservient to the presence of Christ in the body.

In other words God, Jesus Christ is lower than scripture. Where as catholics say Christ in his presence in the body and his living words in sacred scripture are equal. Tradition emanates from the Holy Spirit indwelling within us, but in the solo scriptura scheme, He is also lower and not equal to scripture.


Scripture greater than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the indwelling of His body? Not hardly.

Equal to because they are the living words of God? You bet.

Solo scriptura at it's core really doesn't recognize God

I agree.

Sola Scriptura makes all subject to God and His Scriptures.
The RCC and LDS reject that, arguing that all are subject to itself, including itself.

The RCC and LDS use the norma normans of "The Three-Legged-Stool" as the Mormons call it. The RCC defines those 3 as:

1) Tradition as the RCC itself defines, chooses and interprets so as to agree with the RCC. While technically EQUAL to the other two "legs" it is always listed first and given priority whenever the RCC norma normans is mentioned and discussed.

2) The Scriptures - not on any page or in any tome but "in the heart of the RCC" as the RCC exclusively understands and interprets.

3) The Magisterium of the RCC alone as define and chosen by the RCC alone - it's own rulings, decisions, interpretations and arbitrations declared by the self same to be infallible.

THESE 3 THINGS TOGETHER - EQUALLY, INSEPARABLY, SUPPLIMENTALLY - form the norma normans for the RCC , the Rule or Canon or Plumbline it alone insists MUST be used in order to determine if the teachings and tradition of the RCC are correct or not.

When the RCC does this, the LDS claims it's just one perfect circle of of self-authentication with no other possiblity but to show that self is correct. When the LDS does this, the RCC claims that it's just one perfect circle of self-authentication with no other function than to show that self is correct. I think both are correct.






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  #26  
Unread 17th December 2008, 05:49 PM
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The RCC and LDS use the norma normans of "The Three-Legged-Stool" as the Mormons call it. The RCC defines those 3 as:
Every time you bring up the 3 legged stool I have to chuckle....
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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

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  #27  
Unread 17th December 2008, 07:06 PM
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I agree.

Sola Scriptura makes all subject to God and His Scriptures.
The RCC and LDS reject that, arguing that all are subject to itself, including itself.
I was on forums where Roman Catholicism was compared to Mormonism and anyone that has debated the Mormons will know how "steadfast" they are in their views and beliefs. I stopped debating them awhile back.
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Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

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  #28  
Unread 17th December 2008, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah View Post
I agree.

Sola Scriptura makes all subject to God and His Scriptures.
The RCC and LDS reject that, arguing that all are subject to itself, including itself.

The RCC and LDS use the norma normans of "The Three-Legged-Stool" as the Mormons call it. The RCC defines those 3 as:

1) Tradition as the RCC itself defines, chooses and interprets so as to agree with the RCC. While technically EQUAL to the other two "legs" it is always listed first and given priority whenever the RCC norma normans is mentioned and discussed.

2) The Scriptures - not on any page or in any tome but "in the heart of the RCC" as the RCC exclusively understands and interprets.

3) The Magisterium of the RCC alone as define and chosen by the RCC alone - it's own rulings, decisions, interpretations and arbitrations declared by the self same to be infallible.

THESE 3 THINGS TOGETHER - EQUALLY, INSEPARABLY, SUPPLIMENTALLY - form the norma normans for the RCC , the Rule or Canon or Plumbline it alone insists MUST be used in order to determine if the teachings and tradition of the RCC are correct or not.

When the RCC does this, the LDS claims it's just one perfect circle of of self-authentication with no other possiblity but to show that self is correct. When the LDS does this, the RCC claims that it's just one perfect circle of self-authentication with no other function than to show that self is correct. I think both are correct.





.

You don't make sense.

I believe in the Trinity of God. But not on the basis of a word-for-word interpretation of the Bible, because the words "God the Father and God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are Three Persons in One" were never written there. This is interpretation -- interpretation made in terms of traditional, philosophical, theological belief.
"The Word" (Logos) is Christ. But I suspect that our Mormon friends do not agree. Why not? Because the concept of logos is also a product of ancient Greek philosophy, pre-dating the birth of Christ by several centuries. So I suspect that our LDS friends would argue that these words at the beginning of St. John's Gospel reflect his apparent exposure to Greco-Roman philosophy as much as they do an understanding of Christ's relationship to God.
The bottom line is that Scripture doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor can it be interpreted that way. It was written at the inspiration of the Holy Spirit through men who expressed themselves in the language of their times. Much of the language of St. John is philosophical -- not necessarily because he was a student of philosophy -- but because Christ is Truth, and the goal of philosophy is, ultimately, to get at Truth.
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  #29  
Unread 17th December 2008, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Trento View Post
The bottom line is that Scripture doesn't exist in a vacuum, nor can it be interpreted that way.
And if this thread were about hermeneutics, we could have a wonderful conversation about that...





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  #30  
Unread 17th December 2008, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah View Post
And if this thread were about hermeneutics, we could have a wonderful conversation about that...
Provided we had about a 1000 yrs to live
__________________
Colossians 2:14
Having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us.
And He hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, and He in like manner did partake to the same.
That thru the death He might take-away the one having the power of the death, that is the Devil

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