Catholic, Cafeteria Catholic, "Protestants Pretending to be Catholic" A Discussion
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During my blessed days in Catholicism, I so clearly remember a "rant" of our Deacon (a wonderful and loving man). He spoke of 3 types that are "found" in the Catholic Church....
Here is how HE defined and described these 3 groups "in the Church."
Catholic:
Among other things, a Catholic (he insisted) is one who humbly and with faith submits to the Church as unto Christ. He allows the Lord to be lord, and listens with docilic obedience. He not only knows but envelopes into his whole life that Jesus speaks and leads through His Church - and he listens and follows as good sheep listen to the Good Shepherd. As Jesus Himself said to the Church, "He who hears you, hears Me." See the Catechism # 87.
MY experience is that such Catholics exist. Nearly all of which I've met "on line" but I can think of maybe 3 or 4 among the hundreds of Catholics known to me that I would clearly put in this category.
Cafeteria Catholic:
My Deacon had quite a dislike for these, which he freely admitted is the overwhelming majority here in the USA (he tended to use NFP and abortion and some other moral issues as primary illustrations, but it includes doctrines, too). These are not true Catholics at all. They regard themselves as the "lord" and hold the Church subject to themselves - individually, placing themselves as the sole arbiter for what is right and what is wrong. The pick and choose, accepting as true what they so regard and vise versa. And they are often not very honest about it. There is almost a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude among them that particularly seem to concern the Deacon. Cafeteria Catholics are NOT Catholics, in the passionate view of my Deacon.
I'd say at least 75% of those I personally know that worship among Catholics fall into this category, to varying degrees. My brother in law (a very devout Catholic) actually agrees with Catholicism FAR less than I do. In our discussions, I'm ALWAYS the one supporting Catholicism and he the one disagreeing with it - kinda humorous with he being the passionate cradle Catholic and I being Lutheran! Among my friends in the RCC, I was probably among the most Catholic among a large group of mostly Cafeteria Catholics.
"Protestants Hiding in the Church"
This was the concept that interested me, and the one that caused his greatest rant. By HIS definition, a "Protestant" is one who regards self as the final arbiter of truth. He investigates the matter for himself (perhaps well, perhaps horribly, but the point is: he's doing it). Such assumes that the Church at least could be wrong and holds it accountable (personal comment: horrors of horrors!!!!!!!!!!). He does not view the Church as Christ's own or view himself as in docilic submission to Her - but rather the other way around. Now (as our Deacon put it), GOOD investigation regards Catholic teachings as true, so he comes to the conclusion that the Church is right in what she says, so he may actually agree with the Church far more than the Cafeteria Catholic, but he is a far WORSE Catholic. He is, in fact, a Protestant "hiding in the Church."
He actually had a story he told. It seems there was a Muslim student from some middle easter nation who was an engineering student at some big US university. He liked to party more than study, and he ended up flunking out. Too embarrassed to go home but kicked out of the dorms, he "hid" in the large Catholic Church near the campus! For weeks, very strange things went around the parish until one day a priest discovered, "the man hiding in the church." Well, the Deacon argued, EVERY Catholic parish has HUNDREDS of these! They are actually PROTESTANTS, denying the very basis and authority and nature of the Church - but concluding that they agree with Catholic doctrines.
My own experience is that I've found more of these online in discussion forums than among my personal Catholic friends, and they are more apt to be converts to Catholicism rather than cradle Catholics (perhaps their Protestant assumptions and practices continuing in a denomination that does't permit such).
BTW, I disagree with my Deacon about his definitions of "Protestant" and "Chruch" here but I desire to keep the discussion in his very Catholic framework.
Thoughts? Discussion?
Pax!
- Josiah
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Last edited by CaliforniaJosiah; 20th December 2008 at 11:14 AM.
This was the concept that interested me, and the one that caused his greatest rant. By HIS definition, a "Protestant" is one who regards self as the final arbiter of truth. He investigates the matter for himself (perhaps well, perhaps horribly, but the point is: he's doing it). Such assumes that the Church at least could be wrong and holds it accountable (horrors of horrors!!!!!!!!!!). He does not view the Church as Christ's own or view himself as in docilic submission to Her - but rather the other way around. Now (as our Deacon put it), GOOD investigation regards Catholic teachings as true, so he comes to the conclusion that the Church is right in what she says, so he may actually agree with the Church far more than the Cafeteria Catholic, but he is a far WORSE Catholic. He is, in fact, a Protestant "hiding in the Church."
He actually had a story he told. It seems there was a Muslim student from some middle easter nation who was an engineering student at some big US university. He liked to party more than study, and he ended up flunking out. Too embarrassed to go home but kicked out of the dorms, he "hid" in the large Catholic Church near the campus! For weeks, very strange things went around the parish until one day a priest discovered, "the man hiding in the church." Well, the Deacon argued, EVERY Catholic parish has HUNDREDS of these! They are actually PROTESTANTS, denying the very basis and authority and nature of the Church - but concluding that they agree with Catholic doctrines.
My own experience is that I've found more of these online in discussion forums than among my personal Catholic friends, and they are more apt to be converts to Catholicism rather than cradle Catholics (perhaps their Protestant assumptions and practices continuing in a denomination that does't permit such).
BTW, I disagree with my Deacon about his definitions of "Protestant" and "Chruch" here but I desire to keep the discussion in his very Catholic framework.
Thoughts? Discussion?
I think your deacon is very insightful. I think part of it also has to do with being in a Protestant consumerist culture. People, even Catholics, have trouble grasping the Catholic mindset, to which Protestantism and consumerism are nearly opposites. There are a lot of American Catholics who have similar mindsets to evangelical Protestants, like Baptists, on many issues, even when those issues are not necessarily fully compatible with the Catholic faith.
Check out my "testimony" and "best posts" thread here: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
To be honest it was more like a discovery. I was reading "On Being a Christian" when I arrived to the passage where Küng describes the fundamente difference between Catholic and protestant and then "bang". I had been protestant since I was 13 only that I did not know it.
This may sound very offensive, but I do not mean this as a personal attack. I define cult as a group that goes against the word of God (the Bible/scripture). Catholicism would be an example of a cult that does this repeatedly. It would make sense why the Catholic church would encourage you not to research anything for yourself. God is divine, He is perfect, He has nothing to hide and has made scripture simple enough that even a child could read it. But Satin, who opposes God's character, suggest to us that scripture is too complicated for an average joe to read. So listen to scripture, not a man made teaching. For man has fallen.
Revelation 22:18-19 (King James Version)
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Psalm 119:160 (King James Version)
160Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
2 Timothy 3:15-16 (King James Version)
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
To be honest it was more like a discovery. I was reading "On Being a Christian" when I arrived to the passage where Küng describes the fundamente difference between Catholic and protestant and then "bang". I had been protestant since I was 13 only that I did not know it.
For all my years in Catholicism, I was a "Protestant Hiding in the Church." I did (and do) overwhelmingly agree with the Church - FAR more so than most of my Catholic friends. I thought, studied (a LOT), asked questions (a LOT of questions!) - and largely said, "I agree." I studied church history (a bit - I'm no historian; my father, however, does have a Ph.D. in church history) and concluded that the historic consensus is overwhelmingly on the Catholic side. but I was never "Catholic" in that I never did just accept "with docility" WHATEVER the RCC said as Jesus speaking. It finally dawned on me - in part because of this point from our Deacon - that I was not Catholic and needed to leave.
BTW, shortly before I left but before I so decided, I told my priest that I agree with Catholicism probably 95% of the time. He laughed and replied, "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics!" He was right. But then a whole lot of Catholics aren't Catholic, they are Cafeteria Catholics or Protestants Hiding in the Church. Frankly, I couldn't live a lie. I did what I regarded as the honorable thing. Now, I need to say such wasn't my ONLY reason for leaving, but it was the primary and overwhelming one.
Thank you!
Pax
- Josiah
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__________________ .
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POLITICAL resolution: Power, Authority, Individualism, infallible/unaccountable, lording it over others, lecture.
Check out my "testimony" and "best posts" thread here: To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
For all my years in Catholicism, I was a "Protestant Hiding in the Church." I did (and do) overwhelmingly agree with the Church - FAR more so than most of my Catholic friends. I thought, studied (a LOT), asked questions (a LOT of questions!) - and largely said, "I agree." I studied church history (a bit - I'm no historian; my father, however, does have a Ph.D. in church history) and concluded that the historic consensus is overwhelmingly on the Catholic side. but I was never "Catholic" in that I never did just accept "with docility" WHATEVER the RCC said as Jesus speaking. It finally dawned on me - in part because of this point from our Deacon - that I was not Catholic and needed to leave.
BTW, shortly before I left but before I so decided, I told my priest that I agree with Catholicism probably 95% of the time. He laughed and replied, "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics!" He was right. But then a whole lot of Catholics aren't Catholic, they are Cafeteria Catholics or Protestants Hiding in the Church. Frankly, I couldn't live a lie. I did what I regarded as the honorable thing. Now, I need to say such wasn't my ONLY reason for leaving, but it was the primary and overwhelming one.
Thank you!
Pax
- Josiah
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I am glad that you seek the truth. But the journey never ends and we must be willing to understand new truths as its revealed to us in scripture. I read a little of your sub-post, and I cannot understand how you can believe the Catholic Church is the remnant church when its practiced doctrine is contrary to scripture. I use to be Catholic and it was hard to let go of my traditions, but I either follow Gods word or I don't. There is no in between. God Bless.
I read a little of your sub-post, and I cannot understand how you can believe the Catholic Church is the remnant church when its practiced doctrine is contrary to scripture. I use to be Catholic and it was hard to let go of my traditions, but I either follow Gods word or I don't. There is no in between. God Bless.
I don't know what you mean by "remnant church."
I think it's a wonderful and valid denomination; overwhelmingly correct in what it teaches but I think it "oversteps" what can be substnatiated in some of the unique teachings of that singular denomination, and I disagree with the ecclesiology (doctrine of the church) and epistemology (process of developing and norming doctrines) of the current RCC. I was a "Protestant Hiding in the Church." I had the integity to admit that and leave (however sad that was for me).
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POLITICAL resolution: Power, Authority, Individualism, infallible/unaccountable, lording it over others, lecture.
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No matter what church we belong to, we all enter and leave this earth alone. We are journeying towards God as best we can.
But we are humans, and we have brains. We are not inanimate vessels that hold information poured into us. When we receive information, we analyze it, pray over it, assimilate it with other information, etc.
I have more respect for a cafeteria Catholic who receives information and does these things imperfectly than for someone who, like an inanimate vessel, checks his brains in at the vestibule and just lets information be poured into him without wrestling with it.
And I think God does, too. Maybe the Deacon's favorite Catholics are the inanimate vessel Catholics.
No one's faith is perfect. Everyone's faith is tested. The difference between cafeteria Catholics and the inanimate vessel Catholics is that the cafeteria Catholics have the honesty to admit it, share it with others, and discuss it.
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Catholic, Cafeteria Catholic, "Protestants Pretending to be Catholic" A Discussion 
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