Catholic, Cafeteria Catholic, "Protestants Pretending to be Catholic" A Discussion

Michael96 · #21 9th March 2009, 09:28 AM

That's an interesting distinction between cafeteria Catholics and "Protestants hiding in the Catholic Church"; I hadn't come across that one before.

I daresay your deacon would consider me the latter. I would just call it "thinking" myself (-:

When I first joined the Church it worried me a little that some people said that I wasn't a real Catholic (though that has only ever happened on internet forums). But I soon learned that the Catholic Church has had its internal disagreements ever since the start; there have always been little sub-groups within the Church. Thankfully the Church is much bigger and broader than any individual. I think the time I stopped worrying is when I saw the same group who said I wasn't sufficiently Catholic saying JP-II wasn't sufficiently Catholic ("I'm in very good company then" I thought).

plmarquette · #22 22nd April 2009, 03:55 PM

some one said denominational tags will blow off on the way to heaven or burn off on the way to the other place.....

I was born and raised Catholic ...had an epiphany in 1997, and ended up in an independant Word of Faith Protestant Church....have a masters degree in divinity , go into the local county jail and minister to 3 cell blocks of inmates, write a weekly jail letter with a circulation of 100, and edify and encourage many each week at church....

the point dear brothers is ....do you want rhetoric or action ....do you wish to hear about back in the day or the here and now ....do you wish to get locked up in dogma and doctrine or go out each day and feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners, comfort the sick and understand that each step of the way , God is with you , for James writes in his epistle , that your faith , has birthed works of and for the kingdom, and because of the works, your faith is valid...catholic, protestant, messianic jew...

yabba · #23 3rd May 2009, 09:04 AM

I dunno, this thread is worrying me a bit.. I disagree that Catholics don't think for themselves,I think this is one of the misunderstandings again.. It's just that you recognize you're not alone with the text but you have the Church and its tradition which in fact doesn't go contrary to scripture :/

I'm coming from a Lutheran background, I have always seen myself as still part of the Catholic church, so I guess that is one of your protestants hiding within the church... but I wanna convert for real soon...

kiwimac · #24 3rd May 2009, 02:23 PM

Just for more information:

The Old Catholic Church shares much doctrine and liturgy with the Roman Catholic Church, but has a more liberal stance on most issues, such as the ordination of women, the morality of homosexual acts, artificial contraception and liturgical reforms such as open communion. Its liturgy has departed significantly from the Tridentine Mass, as is shown in the English translation of the German Altarbook (missal) provided on its website.

In 1994 the German bishops decided to ordain women as priests, and put this into practice on 27 May 1996; similar decisions and practices followed in Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands. The Utrecht Union allows those who are divorced to have a new religious marriage and upholds no teaching on birth control, leaving such decisions to the married couple.

I imagine the good Deacon would have called us 'heretics and schismatics', ah well.

HisAgain · #25 3rd June 2009, 09:18 PM

I am not a Catholic, but their teachings resonate with me, and I see myself being one someday. I think that Catholicism, as another poster said, takes a mindset that is different from the "American" or "Protestant" or, honestly, "normal human" mindset. If I become Catholic, I think I will see the Church as the Supreme Court of Christianity. I can read the Constitution (Bible) for myself, but the President (God) appoints those judges because ultimately someone needs to interpret and to safeguard the truth. I completely understand thinking for yourself, but dogma is something I could accept on the faith that Jesus left someone to keep the lamp burning.

But I'm not Catholic--that's just my two cents.

Catholic_NE · #26 16th June 2009, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah

.

During my blessed days in Catholicism, I so clearly remember a "rant" of our Deacon (a wonderful and loving man). He spoke of 3 types that are "found" in the Catholic Church....

Here is how HE defined and described these 3 groups "in the Church."

Catholic:

Among other things, a Catholic (he insisted) is one who humbly and with faith submits to the Church as unto Christ. He allows the Lord to be lord, and listens with docilic obedience. He not only knows but envelopes into his whole life that Jesus speaks and leads through His Church - and he listens and follows as good sheep listen to the Good Shepherd. As Jesus Himself said to the Church, "He who hears you, hears Me." See the Catechism # 87.

MY experience is that such Catholics exist. Nearly all of which I've met "on line" but I can think of maybe 3 or 4 among the hundreds of Catholics known to me that I would clearly put in this category.

Cafeteria Catholic:

My Deacon had quite a dislike for these, which he freely admitted is the overwhelming majority here in the USA (he tended to use NFP and abortion and some other moral issues as primary illustrations, but it includes doctrines, too). These are not true Catholics at all. They regard themselves as the "lord" and hold the Church subject to themselves - individually, placing themselves as the sole arbiter for what is right and what is wrong. The pick and choose, accepting as true what they so regard and vise versa. And they are often not very honest about it. There is almost a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude among them that particularly seem to concern the Deacon. Cafeteria Catholics are NOT Catholics, in the passionate view of my Deacon.

I'd say at least 75% of those I personally know that worship among Catholics fall into this category, to varying degrees. My brother in law (a very devout Catholic) actually agrees with Catholicism FAR less than I do. In our discussions, I'm ALWAYS the one supporting Catholicism and he the one disagreeing with it - kinda humorous with he being the passionate cradle Catholic and I being Lutheran! Among my friends in the RCC, I was probably among the most Catholic among a large group of mostly Cafeteria Catholics.

"Protestants Hiding in the Church"

This was the concept that interested me, and the one that caused his greatest rant. By HIS definition, a "Protestant" is one who regards self as the final arbiter of truth. He investigates the matter for himself (perhaps well, perhaps horribly, but the point is: he's doing it). Such assumes that the Church at least could be wrong and holds it accountable (personal comment: horrors of horrors!!!!!!!!!!). He does not view the Church as Christ's own or view himself as in docilic submission to Her - but rather the other way around. Now (as our Deacon put it), GOOD investigation regards Catholic teachings as true, so he comes to the conclusion that the Church is right in what she says, so he may actually agree with the Church far more than the Cafeteria Catholic, but he is a far WORSE Catholic. He is, in fact, a Protestant "hiding in the Church."

He actually had a story he told. It seems there was a Muslim student from some middle easter nation who was an engineering student at some big US university. He liked to party more than study, and he ended up flunking out. Too embarrassed to go home but kicked out of the dorms, he "hid" in the large Catholic Church near the campus! For weeks, very strange things went around the parish until one day a priest discovered, "the man hiding in the church." Well, the Deacon argued, EVERY Catholic parish has HUNDREDS of these! They are actually PROTESTANTS, denying the very basis and authority and nature of the Church - but concluding that they agree with Catholic doctrines.

My own experience is that I've found more of these online in discussion forums than among my personal Catholic friends, and they are more apt to be converts to Catholicism rather than cradle Catholics (perhaps their Protestant assumptions and practices continuing in a denomination that does't permit such).

BTW, I disagree with my Deacon about his definitions of "Protestant" and "Chruch" here but I desire to keep the discussion in his very Catholic framework.

Thoughts? Discussion?

Pax!

- Josiah

I think that a significant percentage of conservative Catholics -- but by no means all -- think the way your deacon does.

I don't really have a lot of other comments to make. Your post seems pretty self explanatory. But I would like to ask: do you think there's a "Protestant counterpart" to your deacon's philosophy (perhaps a "Protestant, Cafeteria Protestant, Catholic-hiding-in-Protestantism" theory) or do you think it's a uniquely Catholic philosophy?

CaliforniaJosiah · #27 17th June 2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Catholic_NE

I think that a significant percentage of conservative Catholics -- but by no means all -- think the way your deacon does.

... Maybe. In the two forums where I posted this, it seemed well received by Catholics. But also most seem to identify themselves as Cafeteria Catholics or Protestants Hiding in the Church Catholics.

I would like to ask: do you think there's a "Protestant counterpart" to your deacon's philosophy (perhaps a "Protestant, Cafeteria Protestant, Catholic-hiding-in-Protestantism" theory) or do you think it's a uniquely Catholic philosophy?

Perhaps in some fundamentalist groups; I can't say because I'm just not too familiar with that part of Protestantism. Since Protestantism tends to embrace God and His Scripture as the only infallible Authority, and since Protestantism does not require a docilic acceptance of whatever the denomination says, I don't think the same categories apply in any Protestant denomination.

.

Fantine · #28 17th June 2009, 10:35 AM

The Church is first and foremost a community, and, as a community, it is enriched by the presence of all those who participate in it.

I know how strong the need for absolute certainty is among people with a certain mindset, and I can empathize with their rigid obsession with rules and structure (well, actually, it's very difficult for me to empathize with it, but I can try.)

And I think that rather than making life miserable for the rest of us, they have to surrender their obsessions, realize that they don't have control over the world, and don't even have control over their own circumstances, only their attitude towards them.

God made engineers and God made artists. I think He rejoices in the diversity of both groups, and everyone in between. But if the artist tried
to operate within the rigid structures the engineer lives in, something essential to the artist's creative ability would die.

Pay, pray, and obey Catholicism is directly antithetical to the way that God created some human beings--the right-brained artists, dreamers, etc. among us. Like me.

Catholic_NE · #29 17th June 2009, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by CaliforniaJosiah

... Maybe. In the two forums where I posted this, it seemed well received by Catholics. But also most seem to identify themselves as Cafeteria Catholics or Protestants Hiding in the Church Catholics.

Perhaps in some fundamentalist groups; I can't say because I'm just not too familiar with that part of Protestantism. Since Protestantism tends to embrace God and His Scripture as the only infallible Authority, and since Protestantism does not require a docilic acceptance of whatever the denomination says, I don't think the same categories apply in any Protestant denomination.

Makes sense. Although it's worth noting that a couple of times on these forums (and, presumably, a lot of other times that I didn't see) one Protestant told another that he/she should change his/her profile to read "Catholic".

Catholic_NE · #30 17th June 2009, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Fantine

The Church is first and foremost a community, and, as a community, it is enriched by the presence of all those who participate in it.

Well ... I think we're going from one extreme to another here. I don't agree with CaliforniaJosiah's deacon's attitude, but I also wouldn't say that "... it is enriched by the presence of all those who participate in it" (emphasis added). I think the truth lies somewhere in between. (Of course, noting that this is the "Liberal Catholics Forum", I imagine your philosophy is the one that will win out here.)