So is the word “sabbaton” really the word for “week, or Sabbath?”
Both.
A single day cannot be the same thing as a week.
The word for a single day, several different days and for a week are all the same.
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for tall73: Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?
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Since this point keeps coming back as if we have not covered it --
Bob said -
The 7th-day Sabbath in Lev 23 is said to be a Sabbath of "holy convocation" but is not called a feast in Lev 23 and in fact is not a feast.
The Day of Atonement in Lev 23 is said to be a "Sabbath of holy convocation" but is not said to be a "feast" in Lev 23.
The Jubilie rest every 7th year is a Sabbath that is also not a "feast" as John Gill points out.
The translators of NASB and Young's Literal Translation appear to be correct in Lev 23:2, 4 with the term "appointed times" (translit - Miqra') and then in vs 6 "FEAST of Unleavened Bread" (translit - Chag) for that which is actually a feast day.
Originally Posted by tall73
There are both Hebrew and Greek terms to look at here.
First of all please note that Miqra (Hebrew) and chag(Hebrew) are both types of moed (Hebrew) at the beginning of the chapter. And moed (Hebrew) is rendered εορται (Greek) in Leviticus 23, which is the listing of all the εορται of the Lord .
Here we have the glaringly obvious point that the DISTINCTION available to us when translating directly from HEBREW -- is being LOST if we first translate from Hebrew to GREEK and THEN to english.
Hence Tall's preference for the less-precise indirect route that loses the information of the Hebrew text in this case.
Seems hard to MISS.
Tall
All of the appointed times are called moed(Hebrew)/εορται(Greek) in verse 4:
Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts (εορται)(moed) of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.
Moed is translated εορται in verse 4 in the Greek. All of the moed, the appointed times for Israel, are εορται.
All of the appointed times after verse 4 in the whole chapter are called εορται which is the word we see in Colossians.
Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,
Point made about the loss of information - again!
Tell Therefore the Day of Atonement is one of the εορται of the Lord. They are all the appointed times of the Lord.
Actually the "thefore" in this case should be "therefore I choose to ignore the differentiation available in Hebrew even though this was the language used by Moses. Instead I choose the greek because by only looking at a greek rendering of Lev 23 key information is lost and so my argument will hold up".
Curiously -- all Bible translators are not going that route as we see in the case of the NASB, the CEV, Holman's, Youngs etc.
Bob said
1. You are mixing the LXX with the Hebrew. I have no problem at all admitting that the Hebrew in this instance contains a greater range of meaning. And thus the NASB, Youngs, Holman and CEV translators (from Hebrew) are ALL correct in rendering the whole set "Appointed times" while differentiating vs 6 "Feast" or "Festival" of unleavened bread.
NASB
2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times which you shall proclaim as holy convocations--My appointed times are these: 3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings. 4'These are the appointed times of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover. 6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
2. Mow'ed vs 4 - does not argue that they can only be feasts - so again the NASB is correct in selecting consisently differentiating Mow'ed "Appointed Times" -- vs Chaq (Feasts) in the chapter.
Mow'ed
appointed place, appointed time, meeting
appointed time
appointed time (general)
sacred season, set feast, appointed season
appointed meeting
appointed place
appointed sign or signal
tent of meeting
This is particularly signifcant when you notice the way the Hebrew writers are also consistent in switching to much more restricted Chaq - when Feast is what is actually happening.
3. If your position requires that you take on these Bible translators and recommend the LXX over Hebrew - so be it. I am not comfortable going that route but I can understand why you may feel you have to take on that task.
We can keep covering that ground about how the double-translation of Heb -to-Greek and then -to- English is losing information and the fact that well known Bible translations do not make that mistake if you like... I just thought that the point was already instructive the first time around.
First of all please note that Miqra (Hebrew) and chag(Hebrew) are both types of moed (Hebrew) at the beginning of the chapter.
In Lev. 23 "miqra" is the word for "convocation." It is not a type of "mow'ed."
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NASB
2"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD'S appointed times [mow'ed] which you shall proclaim as holy convocations [miqra]--My appointed times [mow'ed] are these: 3'For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation [miqra]. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings. 4'These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover. 6'Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast [chag] of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
Note how the NASB differentiates between [chaq] "feast" and [mow'ed] "appointed times."
__________________ Because the critics have not studied any subject in any sort of depth (at least 3,000 pages), they quite literally do not know how little they know. In fact, they don't even know that they don't know.
---
When they are wrong on the simple, why should you listen to them on the more complex?
---
One rule you can always count on: never, ever trust the critics on anything. They've proven that they cannot, and will not, tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
---
I now have 99 authors in my plagiarism study. The critics still have zero.
Last edited by djconklin; 28th December 2008 at 11:18 AM.
We can keep covering that ground about how the double-translation of Heb -to-Greek and then -to- English is losing information and the fact that well known Bible translations do not make that mistake if you like... I just thought that the point was already instructive the first time around.
in Christ,
Bob
Bob,
The New Testament book of Colossians was not written in Hebrew. It was written in Greek. We are looking at Paul's use of a Greek term. Therefore we have no CHOICE but to look at the Greek. He did not write to them in Hebrew. If he did then we could apply terms from the Hebrew scriptures. But as it is, since he wrote in Greek, we are seeing how the Greek text at that time used the terms.
The Greek word used is also used to describe all the appointed times.
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Last edited by tall73; 28th December 2008 at 02:10 PM.
for tall73: Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?
For one it is used of the Day of Atonement:
Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Nor have I ever denied this.
Now which items are described as εορται in Lev. 23? ALL OF THEM in the whole rest of the chapter, which are then listed, including the Day of Atonement.
And as I spelled out in looking at Ezekiel 45 and Numbers 28 and 29 the sabbath was one of the things that the prince offered the sacrifice for, it was included in that phrase in Ezekiel 45 which you admit is parallel.
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Last edited by tall73; 28th December 2008 at 01:52 PM.
Since this point keeps coming back as if we have not covered it --
The point keeps coming up because you have not grasped it. Col. is not written in Hebrew. It uses a Greek term. Therefore we have to look at how the Greek version handles the terms.
Here we have the glaringly obvious point that the DISTINCTION available to us when translating directly from HEBREW -- is being LOST if we first translate from Hebrew to GREEK and THEN to english.
Paul wrote in Greek, and we are looking at what Paul meant.
Hence Tall's preference for the less-precise indirect route that loses the information of the Hebrew text in this case.
Seems hard to MISS.
Hence Tall's preference for looking at the language Paul actually wrote in instead of pretending Paul wrote in Hebrew or English to the Colossians.
Point made about the loss of information - again!
Point missed again.
Actually the "thefore" in this case should be "therefore I choose to ignore the differentiation available in Hebrew even though this was the language used by Moses. Instead I choose the greek because by only looking at a greek rendering of Lev 23 key information is lost and so my argument will hold up".
I am not looking in Greek just so my argument holds up. I am looking in the Greek because that was the language of the verse we are studying in this thread. Can you really not see that?
Curiously -- all Bible translators are not going that route as we see in the case of the NASB, the CEV, Holman's, Youngs etc.
The subject of this thread is not the translation of Lev. 23 itself, but the USE of the OT material by Paul in Greek, in which case it is necessary to consult the Greek text in use at that time.
Paul did not write Col. in Hebrew. Since the letter was written in Greek you must deal with what is there.
The term, εορται, a Greek term, was a term used for all of the appointed times after verse 4 in Lev. 23.
And Col. 2:16 is parallel to Ezekiel 45 which is a summary of the material in Numbers 28-29 where the weekly sabbath was clearly included.
So if you wish to look at the Hebrew reading of the term in Colossians then you will have to prove that Colossians was written to a gentile church in Hebrew, and then come up with that Hebrew text. But I don't find that likely.
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Last edited by tall73; 28th December 2008 at 02:12 PM.
In Lev. 23 "miqra" is the word for "convocation." It is not a type of "mow'ed."
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Note how the NASB differentiates between [chaq] "feast" and [mow'ed] "appointed times."[/color]
Incorrect. They are indeed all called mow'ed in verse 4:
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
He then goes on to list all of the various feasts and holy convocations, which are all part of the appointed times.
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Originally Posted by djconklin for tall73: Which verse and which chapter use the word "miqra"?
For one it is used of the Day of Atonement:
Lev 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
The word "miqra," as I noted carefully previously, is used to translate the word "convocation." It is NOT used for the word "feast." It is irrelevant in the context of this discussion.
Originally Posted by djconklin
In Lev. 23 "miqra" is the word for "convocation." It is not a type of "mow'ed."
---
Note how the NASB differentiates between [chaq] "feast" and [mow'ed] "appointed times."[/color]
Incorrect. They are indeed all called mow'ed in verse 4:
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
As I stated previously, the NASB shows the difference between "feasts" and "appointed times":
NASB These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
The NASB and I are correct.
"chag" is the more techinical term for "feast" in the OT Hebrew. The LXX uses "heorte" for both "chag" and mow'ed."
Note also:
2 Chronicles 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts [mow'ed], three times in the year, even in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles.
Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
Note that the Hebrew is consistent. The terms are not interchangeable, willy-nilly.
Hopefully, sometime next year my article on this subject will be published in a scholarly, refereed journal.
__________________ Because the critics have not studied any subject in any sort of depth (at least 3,000 pages), they quite literally do not know how little they know. In fact, they don't even know that they don't know.
---
When they are wrong on the simple, why should you listen to them on the more complex?
---
One rule you can always count on: never, ever trust the critics on anything. They've proven that they cannot, and will not, tell you the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
---
I now have 99 authors in my plagiarism study. The critics still have zero.
As I stated previously, the NASB shows the difference between "feasts" and "appointed times":
NASB These are the appointed times [mow'ed] of the LORD, holy convocations [miqra] which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them.
The NASB and I are correct.
All the things that follow are mow'ed. Therefore you are in fact not correct.
"chag" is the more techinical term for "feast" in the OT Hebrew. The LXX uses "heorte" for both "chag" and mow'ed."
EXACTLY. The LXX uses heorte for BOTH. And in Lev. 23 it referred in verse 4 to all of the services.
Hence you admit that all of the things after verse 4, called Mow'ed, are also called heorte, just as in Col.
Note also:
2 Chronicles 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts [mow'ed], three times in the year, even in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles.
Deuteronomy 16:16 Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast [chag] of unleavened bread, and in the feast [chag] of weeks, and in the feast [chag] of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty:
No one has said that chag is used of the day of atonement. But the word Mow'ed is used of the day of atonement and is translated heorte. It is really not hard to grasp. And we already showed the parallel with Ezek. and Numbers.
So your distinction on Hebrew is pointless when Col. is in Greek and Greek uses the one word for both.
You had said before that heorte was not ever used of the day of atonement. But oldsage showed you wrong by pointing to Lev. I am sorry that you did all that research and never apparently did a wordsearch on all the uses of heorte, but the theory has been shown wrong.
Note that the Hebrew is consistent. The terms are not interchangeable, willy-nilly.
Note that Paul wrote in Greek, not Hebrew, and the term he used was applied to the day of atonement also as it was one of the heorte.
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