I am asking that we consider one very specific topic in this thread--which sabbaths are being discussed in Col. 2:16?
I am not necessarily even interested in this thread in the overall interpretation of the passage, or the meaning of meat, drink etc. I am just wanting to try, if possible, to determine whether the sabbaths in col. 2 are weekly or yearly.
In the course of looking at that aspect there may be some interpretive work of the passage, context, etc., and that is fine. But please keep the topic on track. The main goal is to see what kind of Sabbath is indicated.
This is not a general debate about whether the Sabbath is to be kept or not. Save that for another thread please.
Though it very obvious that a good reading of the chapter will uncover that the author is speaking of the whole Mosaic law by his comparison of what we have in Christ, with the taking away of law and the deceptions of men through false teachings, the verse 16 passage I believe is a reference not only to all other sabbaths, but also to the weekly sabbath as well. Many of the holy days where also associated with sabbaths.
AT
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Yearly feast days of Lev 23 are being referenced since they are the "predictive" Sabbaths -- the shaddows pointing forward to an event "to be fulfilled". As vs 17 of Col 2 point out "shaddows of things to come" -- this is the role of "predictive laws" -- the types given to point to some future event.
Tall
The Sabbath stood for both a memorial of creation and of redemption. The Deuteronomy version of the commandment commemorated release from Egypt.
Moreover in Hebrews the fulfillment of God's rest was the rest of salvation which we enter into "today" and will be fully realized in the new earth.
But a larger problem for your view is that the feasts are clearly already referenced earlier in the verse.
A feast a newmoon or a sabbath.
yearly monthly weekly
The term for feast is the very term used to describe everything in Lev. 23.
1. It would be difficult to make that case that in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was "made holy" it was to tell Adam about salvation from sin.
2. Paul argues "let no one judge you" and Christ also argues in Matt 7 "judge not that you be not judged" - Pre-cross. This is no change.
3. I am not arguing that people should judge others regarding Sabbath - God alone determines that sin is transgression of His Law and He alone judges in that regard. We do nothing but choose individually to keep it or ignore it.
4. In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are Sabbaths. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).
1. It would be difficult to make that case that in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was "made holy" it was to tell Adam about salvation from sin.
I agree. We have no proof that God even said one word to Adam about the sabbath.
2. Paul argues "let no one judge you" and Christ also argues in Matt 7 "judge not that you be not judged" - Pre-cross. This is no change.
But you have left off the context. Paul is infering that they where not obligated to do those things contained under the old covenant.
3. I am not arguing that people should judge others regarding Sabbath - God alone determines that sin is transgression of His Law and He alone judges in that regard. We do nothing but choose individually to keep it or ignore it.
I agree.
AT
__________________ The greatest gift God gave to humanity is HIMSELF!
They overlook the term εορται in Lev. 23. All of those things were holy days designated by the word for feast here, including the day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles.
the sabbath--Omit "THE," which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Ga 4:10). "SABBATHS" (not "the sabbaths") of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Le 23:32, 37-39).
See above
The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Le 23:38 expressly distinguished "the sabbath of the Lord" from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb 4:9, "rests," Greek, "keeping of sabbath" (Isa 66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Ro 13:8-10).
Actually by their own definition the sabbath was a "positive" precept which was instituted at one point in time in commemoration. And like the passover which pointed back to an event (Exodus) and pointed forward, so the Sabbath points back to TWO events (creation and redemption from Egypt) and forward to the eternal rest and the rest of salvation.
And as to it having been instituted in the garden, there is no command whatsoever in the garden. God's rest was not expressed as a command to people for a weekly memorial until Exodus. We see no one at all observing it until it was then given to Israel. And when He did give it to Israel it was as a sign with Israel:
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
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Last edited by tall73; 13th December 2008 at 01:27 PM.
1. It would be difficult to make that case that in Gen 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was "made holy" it was to tell Adam about salvation from sin.
Indeed, it would be difficult to make the case that it stood for redemption from Egypt too. But it did.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
There was no giving at all in Genesis of the "Sabbath" as a command of rest to humans every 7th day. We find that when God gave that command of the Sabbath to the Israelites that it was called a sign WITH them and that it commemorated TWO events, both of which were crucial in their relationship to God in the covenant:
God was their creator
God was their redeemer.
The covenant document, the ten commandments, therefore contain this sign with Israel of God as their Suzerain, in parallel with covenants of the day. It lists the past relationship with their Lord and the reasons for obedience.
2. Paul argues "let no one judge you" and Christ also argues in Matt 7 "judge not that you be not judged" - Pre-cross. This is no change.
3. I am not arguing that people should judge others regarding Sabbath - God alone determines that sin is transgression of His Law and He alone judges in that regard. We do nothing but choose individually to keep it or ignore it.
Yet Adventists CONSTANTLY judge folks on the Sabbath. But why are they not to judge? Because it is a shadow.
4. In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are Sabbaths. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).
in Christ,
Bob
Sorry but this misses the point. They are all called by the same term as "feast" in Col. 2.
The term for feast in Col. 2 is ἑορτῆς.
Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,
That term is used in Lev. 23 for all of the holy days of the Lord, including the ceremonial sabbaths:
Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.
To the person who sent me a personal message warning me of eternal damnation for resisting the Sabbath on scriptural grounds, and leading people astray, please post here publicly and show my view wrong from the Scriptures. I am open to change on that point. I have done so before. It is certainly not my goal to lead anyone astray, starting with myself. But I can't make the decision on back-room warnings with no evidence. If you are concerned about people being led astray-including me, since you seem concerned in your letter, then come post the evidence.
To anyone reading this thread, please make no decision on my say-so. Examine the Bible for yourself.
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Last edited by tall73; 13th December 2008 at 04:45 AM.
Bob said
Indeed, it would be difficult to make the case that it stood for redemption from Egypt too. But it did.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
There was no giving at all in Genesis of the "Sabbath"
1. As we both know - the Deut 5 incident is 40 years AFTER sinai and merely adds to what God spoke from the mountain -- it is not a replacement.
2. There is no way God could have 'made sabbath holy in Gen 2 by telling Adam about deliverance from Egypt" Which means that the "holy Day" of Gen 2:1-3 had only one application for "all mankind" when it was "Made for mankind" not "mankind Made for it".
3. Ex 20:8-11 does not say "Now I make the 7th day holy" rather it says that in Eden God "made it Holy"
. We find that when God gave that command of the Sabbath to the Israelites that it was called a sign WITH them and that it commemorated TWO events, both of which were crucial in their relationship to God in the covenant:
God was their creator
God was their redeemer.
We gentiles still use that same application - but we have no idea that God was telling Adam about a future Redeemer in Gen 2:1-3 which is why we see no reference to it in Ex 20:8-11 as God Himself speaks it from Sinai.
There is not doubt that Moses is correct in stating that Israel had an additional reason to honor Christ's Holy out of special national gratitude for deliverance from Egypt (that had nothing to do with a 7 day cycle at all)
Yet Adventists CONSTANTLY judge folks on the Sabbath.
How so?
Do we "judge people on image worship"?? I don't think so.
Do we "judge people on praying to the dead"?? I don't think so.
Do we "judge people for breaking God's memorial of His Creative work" - no.
We simply point to what the Bible says and let each person decide for themselves.
But why are they not to judge? Because it is a shadow.
They are not to judge because as Christ said in Matt 7 PRE-CROSS "judge not that you be not judged".
The "judge not" argument of Paul is in perfect harmony with the pre-cross position on this error.
4. In Lev 23 we see both annual feast days that are not Sabbaths (days of holy convocation) and those that are Sabbaths. (Passover and the feast of Unleavened bread being a good example).
Originally Posted by tall73
Sorry but this misses the point. They are all called by the same term as "feast" in Col. 2.
The term for feast in Col. 2 is ἑορτῆς.
Col 2:16 Μὴ οὖν τις ὑμᾶς κρινέτω ἐν βρώσει ἢ ἐν πόσει ἢ ἐν μέρει ἑορτῆς ἢ νεομηνίας ἢ σαββάτων,
That term is used in Lev. 23 for all of the holy days of the Lord, including the ceremonial sabbaths:
Lev 23:4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them.
The 7th-day Sabbath in Lev 23 is said to be a Sabbath of "holy convocation" but is not called a feast in Lev 23 and in fact is not a feast.
The Day of Atonement in Lev 23 is said to be a "Sabbath of holy convocation" but is not said to be a "feast" in Lev 23.
The Jubilie rest every 7th year is a Sabbath that is also not a "feast" as John Gill points out.
The translators of NASB and Young's Literal Translation appear to be correct in Lev 23:2, 4 with the term "appointed times" (translit - Miqra') and then in vs 6 "FEAST of Unleavened Bread" (translit - Chag) for that which is actually a feast day.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by BobRyan; 13th December 2008 at 10:26 AM.
Indeed, it would be difficult to make the case that it stood for redemption from Egypt too. But it did.
Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Deliverance 'from Egypt' is trumped by a greater deliverance....
Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said,
The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel [deliverance] from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that
I gave unto their fathers. KJV Similar to Jer 23:7-8
Originally Posted by tall
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
The ark of the covenant (incl two tables stone}, is not remembered in the city of ZION!
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days,
saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD:
neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it;
neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations
shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: KJV
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