Denomination-specific TheologyA special subforum where a thread starter can restrict threads to replies by members of a particular denomination only to discuss denomination-specific theology.
My first question was on tithing and here I am, secondly, asking what is probably a novice question of the forum: when we're commanded to keep the Sabbath, what does that mean? I exercise on Sunday, we eat out, the kids do homework, we play games, go shopping. With the exception of going to church, our Sundays (Sabbaths) are similar to other days. While I haven't done an exhaustive study of the Sabbath, I can at least get the sense from a cursory reading of Scripture that my Sabbath's aren't like the ones described for the Jews. We've recently started attending some local churches that have really early services that are heavily attended, and several of the people we've talked to have said they attend the early service so that church won't take up the whole day--they can be done by 10 am! I fear I've lost touch with the notion of "a sabbath" other than acknowledging God in a more formal way on that day. How do you all feel about your Sabbaths? Is it a heart attitude or an expected, literal ritual/limitation on activities of a particular day? Hopefully my form of the question isn't too confusing. I think most of you have strong feelings one way or the other on what I've shared. Thanks to any of you who take time to respond.
Again, welcome to Denomination-specific theology! The answers to your questions will be vastly different if you are interested in a discussion with, for example, a Seventh Day Adventist, versus let us say a Messianic Jew or a Presbyterian. Take a moment and edit your OP to make it Denomination-specific.
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Thanks for the clarification...you know how new guys are. :-) I think I would prefer to keep the topic open to as much input as possible. Unless we are reading vastly different Bibles, I'd like to know everyone's read on the Sabbath. Thanks, again, for taking time to redirect the question. It appears it's not that interesting of a subject to most--and that's ok, too--that's an answer of sorts. :-)
You haven't lost it, but perhaps are discovering it...
Hi NewAdam,
I don't know if you reposted this message in the General Theology area or not, but since I found it here I thought I'd respond. As evidenced by your inquiry about whether you have "lost the Sabbath", it seems clear to me that you have not lost it at all. If you had lost it you would not be queestioning yourself. Perhaps it is a matter of discovering the Sabbath or trying to determine what it means to you.
I did not grow up Christian myself, and did not know anything about the Sabbath. But, now that I am Christian and have more recently studied the topic myself, I have realized that the Bible talks extensively about the importance and reality of the Sabbath.
In short, the Sabbath was made by God for man at the end of Creation week. It is a day He blessed, made holy and sanctified (set aside), It is a special day that He wants us to keep holy and spend with Him.
So, your question is what should we do on this day? Well, God gave us an outline of what to do in Exodus 20:8-11. In short, the way I would explain it myself, is that God wants us to rest as we set aside the business of our lives on that day, and He wants us to spend time with Him. God also says that the Sabbath will be a sign between Him and His people. (Ezekiel 20:12) It's like He made a weekly appointment with us, and is waiting to spend time with us on it. It is promised by God that if we observe it then it will be a day of special blessing for us, not a day of constraints or feeling like "I can't do this or that on this day".
Now that I understand and keep it myself, I find myself looking forward to the Sabbath each week! It's as if God has given me permission to set all of my life stressors and frustrations from the week aside and then rest with Him on His special day. It is amazing how my busy 7-day work week has become a more productive 6-day work week, with one special day for God.
You mentioned tithing as your previous posting. I heard something about tithing that really made sense to me, and it is no coincidence that there is a parallel principle in it... 90% with God's blessing is worth far more than 100% without His blessing. I have found that is very true. If I set aside 10% up front for God, then the 90% that remains will go further. Likewise, 6 days of work and one day of rest is so much more of a healthful blessing than 7 days a week of running myself ragged!
There are some very fascinating things I discovered about the Sabbath that are not immediately obvious on the surface. Since the topic is a rather large one, let me point you to a web site I trust that I feel does a pretty good job of explaining about the Sabbath and God's will for it as explained in the Bible. Go to sabbathtruth"dot"com/sabbath_purpose.asp for more. Hope this is helpful and a blessing to you.
1. Christ was raised on the first day of the week. See Luke 23:54 through Luke 24:21. There you see "The Preparation day" (Friday), the Sabbath (Saturday) and the First day of the Week (Sunday) all in order with the resurrection of Christ taking place on the first day of the week.
2. Many Christian keeps Sunday in honor of Christ being resurrected on the first day of the week.
3. The 4th commandment as God spoke it at Sinai and as He wrote it on tablets of stone - can be found in Exodus 20:8-11. "For in Six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth the seas and all othat is in them and rested the Seventh day therefore the Lord Blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy".
It is the Seventh day of the week that is the Sabbath -- not the first day.
4. If your intent is to keep the Sabbath Holy as God defined the practice in Ex 20:8-11 then you are not to work and you are not to pay others to work for you on that day. Further - it is a day of "Holy convocation" a day of worship as we see in Leviticus 23:3. In fact in Isaiah 66:22 God says that "From Sabbath to Sabbath" all mankind shall "come before Me to Worship" in the New Earth.
Typically when differences come up between denominations it has to do with what we each choose to "do" about those facts above -- it is not a dispute about the facts themselves.
I for one find it interesting that in Gen 2:3 God says he made the day a Holy Day in the Garden of Eden - on week-day- 7 of creation week.
In Mark 2:27 Christ confirms that the "Sabbath was MADE for mankind".
There are some basic facts to remember about the Sabbath, some of which have been mentioned already. These are:
1. The Sabbath ihe seventh day of the week (Saturday) and not the first day (Sunday).
2, No where in the New Testament is the Sabbath ever said or commanded as being the first day.
4. The sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. It was given by God to man as a day of rest.
5. In the Old Testament there are many Sabbaths commanded which are not on the seventh day. These are in addition to the seventh-day Sabbath. They compare to our holidays.
6. No religous denomination apart from certain Jewish denominations observe the Old Testament sabbaths so it is absurd to think that seventh-day Adventists and others are actually obedient to God.
7. God gave the Sabbath to His covenant people, the children of Israel (Jews). Gentiles come into covenant with the God of Israel through Christ who has fulfilled all of the Law in His death on the cross.
8. Gentiles can't lose what they don't have.
9. There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:9) and Christ is that rest. Therefore we should be dilligent to enter into the rest which Christ has obtained for us - a rest from our works and efforts to fulfill the Law.
No religous denomination apart from certain Jewish denominations observe the Old Testament sabbaths so it is absurd to think that seventh-day Adventists and others are actually obedient to God.
Actually it is absurd to believe what you have just said. The sabbaths that were apart of the ceremonial system and the handwriting of ordinances were included because of the shadows of the old covenant. Jesus blotted out the shadows and therefore we no longer have to observe these days and feasts that were apart of the ceremonial system. The 7th day Sabbath was made before sin even entered the world and was made for man. It was not made for sacrifices and ordinances like the other sabbaths. It stands.
God gave the Sabbath to His covenant people, the children of Israel (Jews). Gentiles come into covenant with the God of Israel through Christ who has fulfilled all of the Law in His death on the cross.
God have the Sabbath to man. It was made before the children of Israel even existed. The 7th day was blessed and sanctified at the end of creation week. Jesus fulfilling the law does not mean that we dont have to abide by it anymore. He fulfilled it so we can understand it better. Why did he go through the trouble of explaining Sabbath keeping and explaining adultery and murder if we are not to bother with it anymore. If we love Jesus we will keep his commandments for love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gentiles can't lose what they don't have.
When you are adopted are you still a gentile? Paul said that he was a jew not of the outer but the inner man or something close to that. If anyman be in Christ he is abraham's seed. He is a son of Abraham. He is of the house of Israel by adoption. He is no longer a gentile. The Sabbath is not for the jews but for man.
There remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:9) and Christ is that rest. Therefore we should be dilligent to enter into the rest which Christ has obtained for us - a rest from our works and efforts to fulfill the Law.
Sounds good but it is not biblical. We are told to enter into God's rest the way that God did from his. Did God rest from works to fulfill the law? No. God ceased from his work of creation on the 7th day. If we are to follow that example it means that we should also cease from our physical works.
According to you we need not to put any effort into trying to fulfill the law when the scriptures plainly tell us that when we love we fulfill the law. It takes effort to resist the lusts of the flesh and hold on the Jesus. It takes effort to gain the victory over sin. Not by our own strength by his strength. But it is our willingless and effort to surrender to him and let him take over us.
Actually it is absurd to believe what you have just said. The sabbaths that were apart of the ceremonial system and the handwriting of ordinances were included because of the shadows of the old covenant. Jesus blotted out the shadows and therefore we no longer have to observe these days and feasts that were apart of the ceremonial system. The 7th day Sabbath was made before sin even entered the world and was made for man. It was not made for sacrifices and ordinances like the other sabbaths. It stands.
Stand it does, indeed, on every calendar. We still have a seven-day week and the seventh day is Saturday or, as some would have it, Shabbat.
God have the Sabbath to man. It was made before the children of Israel even existed. The 7th day was blessed and sanctified at the end of creation week. Jesus fulfilling the law does not mean that we dont have to abide by it anymore. He fulfilled it so we can understand it better. Why did he go through the trouble of explaining Sabbath keeping and explaining adultery and murder if we are not to bother with it anymore. If we love Jesus we will keep his commandments for love is the fulfilling of the law.
Please allow me to follow your circular reasoning. If Christ is love and love is the fulfilling of the law, then Christ has fulfilled the law and we cannot fulfill what Christ has already fulfilled. If not, then we are under obligation to keep to whole law and to keep it perfectly. This does not merely include keeping Shabbat, but keeping kosher and performing every ordinance given by God to His covenant people. Please show us where Jesus commanded anyone to keep Shabbat, much less how to do so.
When you are adopted are you still a gentile? Paul said that he was a jew not of the outer but the inner man or something close to that. If anyman be in Christ he is abraham's seed. He is a son of Abraham. He is of the house of Israel by adoption. He is no longer a gentile. The Sabbath is not for the jews but for man.
I am a Gentile and will be a Gentile until the day I die. Although I am part of that one new body in Christ composed of Jews and Gentiles and known as the church (Ephesians 2) it hardly means that I am a Jew and, therefore, obligated under the Mosaic covenant.
Sounds good but it is not biblical. We are told to enter into God's rest the way that God did from his. Did God rest from works to fulfill the law? No. God ceased from his work of creation on the 7th day. If we are to follow that example it means that we should also cease from our physical works.
Then Christ was in violation of God's sabbath because He healed (worked) on the Sabbath and did not cease from His physical works. You may well argue that Christ, being God, was an exception. However, if my neighbor suffers a heart attack on the Sabbath would you, if you were a doctor, be justified to stand idly by and let him die?
According to you we need not to put any effort into trying to fulfill the law when the scriptures plainly tell us that when we love we fulfill the law. It takes effort to resist the lusts of the flesh and hold on the Jesus. It takes effort to gain the victory over sin. Not by our own strength by his strength. But it is our willingless and effort to surrender to him and let him take over us.
If that is the case, then we will have earned our salvation through our efforts and salvation will be a matter of our efforts and not of God's grace. According to John 10:27-29 who holds who? I am quite certain that if it was up to me to hold onto Jesus, I would lose my grip. Where, in the Bible, does it say that it is up to us to hold onto Him?
By the way, when was the last time you kept the Sabbath according to God's commandment and not man's interpretation?
Please allow me to follow your circular reasoning. If Christ is love and love is the fulfilling of the law, then Christ has fulfilled the law and we cannot fulfill what Christ has already fulfilled. If not, then we are under obligation to keep to whole law and to keep it perfectly. This does not merely include keeping Shabbat, but keeping kosher and performing every ordinance given by God to His covenant people. Please show us where Jesus commanded anyone to keep Shabbat, much less how to do so.
You don't understand what fulfills means it that context. Many see the word fulfill to mean to do away with which means to destroy in different words. The text says not to destroy but to fulfill. But is a word used to show a contrast thus fulfill in this context cannot mean anything that ultimately means destroy. What Jesus did was magnify, explain, make clear, show the true meaning and expound the law.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
No longer just thou shall not kill, Jesus goes further and shows the true meaning of this.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jesus here explains adultery and fulfills this law.
Mat 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Here Jesus is clearing up the polluted legalistic ideas of the Sabbath. Here he says that it is lawful to do Good on the Sabbath. Jesus is saying that it is not against the law to do good on the Sabbath. Therefore a doctor who lets a patient die on the Sabbath is not doing what Jesus would do. Jesus fulfilled the law so we can understand it better and we can realize how the law is kept in the heart.
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