What's more important?

GreenMunchkin · #11 7th December 2008, 06:04 PM

? You're allowed to engage in dialogue.

AdrocK48 · #12 7th December 2008, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by [serious]

What's more important to you:

1. Honest seeking of the truth
2. Happening on the right answer

In other words, do you feel we should encourage others to seek honestly and openly for truth or push them only towards what we believe the truth to be?

I reckon that we should not push our agenda/beliefs to others. If you have ever been in a discussion with another person about any topic where they were pushing their thoughts onto you, id guess you got quite defensive and angry that this was happening... regardless of whether or not they were right or wrong. for example, my favourite team, team 1 is better than your team, team 2 for xyz reasons. you should follow my team 1 as they are better. regardless of whether they are right or wrong, your team is team 2 and this line of arguement and reasoning from the team 1 fan is not going to get you to change your mind.

Each person has a different way they do evangelism/truth seeking. For me, I take the act then talk, ala Galatians 5:19, Colossians 4:5, Romans 14 and James 2:14-26. personally i try to make sure that i am living a way in which cant be brought into disrepute when i speak.

back to the question after a bit of a tanjent. We should encourage the individual to both look for truth and honesty openly, and we should talk to them about our beliefs. If they are genuinely trying to find answers and truth then a) they will ask us about what we believe and b) why should we deny them truth?

salida · #13 7th December 2008, 08:42 PM

I tell them the truth; then I tell them to do their own research and homework for themselves. So, the answer is both. People need to find out for themselves and verify my answers.

[serious] · #14 7th December 2008, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by GreenMunchkin

? You're allowed to engage in dialogue.

I was under the impression that the rule that further posting, even by the OP, could only be used to clarify the original question. Thanks for the update.

I find it rather odd that so many people (of all religious convictions) spend so much time arguing about who's right. When asked about it, most people seem to like the idea of the search for truth being as valuable and important as any revalation found, yet in practice there is such an emphasis in the various organizations towards conversion.

I'm currently reading "The Reason Driven Life" (which is sort of a response to "The Purpose Driven Life") and one of the main thrusts in the book is that we should be coming to our own conclusions on matters. We should not shift decissions on matters of faith onto others but seek answers for ourselves.

I've noticed this within the church community as well. Cultural norms seem to be impressed on the bible and then backed up by selecting verses that sound like they agree. Far too many people seem to be far to satisfied hearing a preacher quote a verse and feel no need to actually read the chapter it come from themselves.

Gotta go, at work.

Chesterton · #15 7th December 2008, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by [serious]

When asked about it, most people seem to like the idea of the search for truth being as valuable and important as any revalation found, yet in practice there is such an emphasis in the various organizations towards conversion.

The only reason to search for something is to find that something. Would you find meaning in searching for your car keys when you hadn't lost them? It's a bizarre 19th-20th century idea that searching for something is more important than finding something. I've usually seen that idea expressed by modern scientists. It's a cop-out because they've had their minds blown by reality, and they refuse to accept the obvious answer (God), so they say "the religious answer can't be right, so we'll have to keep looking, looking, looking...so we'll just conclude that actual meaning is found in looking". Nonsense.

GreenMunchkin · #16 8th December 2008, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by [serious]

I was under the impression that the rule that further posting, even by the OP, could only be used to clarify the original question. Thanks for the update.

I find it rather odd that so many people (of all religious convictions) spend so much time arguing about who's right. When asked about it, most people seem to like the idea of the search for truth being as valuable and important as any revalation found, yet in practice there is such an emphasis in the various organizations towards conversion.

I'm currently reading "The Reason Driven Life" (which is sort of a response to "The Purpose Driven Life") and one of the main thrusts in the book is that we should be coming to our own conclusions on matters. We should not shift decissions on matters of faith onto others but seek answers for ourselves.

I've noticed this within the church community as well. Cultural norms seem to be impressed on the bible and then backed up by selecting verses that sound like they agree. Far too many people seem to be far to satisfied hearing a preacher quote a verse and feel no need to actually read the chapter it come from themselves.

Gotta go, at work.

One thing you've said is confusing me, but besides that you're absolutely right in everything you say. However, I think "sheepleness" is a condition that's specific to humanity, as opposed to Christianity - or even religion in general. Most people are happy to follow the crowd... life feels safer when you're one of many, I think.

But, it's rife within Christianity, sho' nuff. The discussion is sort of splitting off into 2 areas: first being the understanding of "truth" within religion (specifically Christianity); secondly, the issue of proselytising. On that second point, I don't think sharing the Gospel can be seen a forcing anything, so people are still able to search for the truth on their own terms. In the west where we have freedom of religion, and where we're all able to search for anything and everything at the click of a mouse, we're able to come to our own decisions.

In places where, for example, Islam is forced upon the people and anyone else is arrested, in those places, someone's arbitrary understanding of truth is being forced upon others, yes.

Back to the issue of truth: most Christians believe the Bible to be God's word. Historically and in terms of apologetics, its integrity can be relied upon. But, more importantly, most Christians have experienced something that confirms the claims made in the Bible are the truth. Isn't that fair enough, though? If we felt Christ wasn't the truth, we wouldn't follow Him.

If atheists believed they were wrong, they'd choose a different path, no? No-one willingly adheres to something they believe to be false - so when Jesus tells us to share the Good News, it's something we do. We don't get to force people to accede to our views; in fact, the Bible is very clear on the fact that it's not *us* that converts people, it's the Holy Spirit. So all we can do is share the truth as we understand it - and it's absolutely true that with denominations, doctrine varies, but the central truth of His death and resurrection and our salvation is unchanging - and allow people to work it out for themselves, on their own terms, and with the Holy Spirit's help.

I know many don't feel about it the way I do, and their approach is very different. Conveniently, I think they're wrong

And they, doubtless, believe my approach is wrong. So all we can do is try our best to bring glory to God, and trust that He will move where He moves.

Two quick points, though: not all of us see any value whatsoever in A Purpose Driven Life

And, going back to the thing you said that confused me; could you clarify, please?

Cultural norms seem to be impressed on the bible and then backed up by selecting verses that sound like they agree.

And, lastly, to do with listening to pastors instead of searching for ourselves... we're happy to listen to pastors because they're trained for years, and we're commanded to respect our spiritual elders. But, even beyond that, the Bible is, like, this absolute treasure-trove of jewels and secrets and little passageways and links and clues. It's really amazing. Plus it's this extraordinary love letter from God to us all, and with a lifetime of study, we'll just about scratch the surface.

We're supposed to spend time alone with the Bible, and in small groups, *and* listening to our pastor. That way we can be taught by people who are trained, by people who have discovered something wonderful by themselves, and by the Holy Spirit directly. But, also, bear in mind: not all pastors have a following. If someone shows themselves to be misrepresenting God - as He is in the Bible - he will eventually lose his place. Look at Todd Bentley, for example. There are severe grey areas like Benny Hinn and, yeppers, Rick Warren, but God will work that out, either way.

So listening to our pastors isn't done instead of learning and searching for ourselves - it's done concurrently.

Philothei · #17 8th December 2008, 11:18 AM

If atheists believed they were wrong, they'd choose a different path, no? No-one willingly adheres to something they believe to be false - so when Jesus tells us to share the Good News, it's something we do. We don't get to force people to accede to our views; in fact, the Bible is very clear on the fact that it's not *us* that converts people, it's the Holy Spirit. So all we can do is share the truth as we understand it - and it's absolutely true that with denominations, doctrine varies, but the central truth of His death and resurrection and our salvation is unchanging - and allow people to work it out for themselves, on their own terms, and with the Holy Spirit's help.

I wholeheartately agree with you here GM. It is the spirit that "blows" eventually wherever it pleases.

And per Serious post I think that like any other decision in our life we should always question and search. Truth is not "afraid" of questioning as it stands for its own. Christ is God and His Truth endures forever.

The contradictions that they "appear" in the Bible are not contradictions but rather points that they need to be explained by trained clergy/pastors. Also seeking the truth in the Christian tradition in oder to deepen one's faith is guided by spirtual guides i.e. the Apostles followed by the elders and so forth.

Eventually one who believes and aquires faith "more is added" to him through the Holy Spirit. Some things esp. of spiritual nature are not always based on the "intellect" alone. We are talking about "spritual realm" and experiences that are very private and personal. If we try to reason such experiences ONLY using our intellect we will fail to explain religious experience.... in general.

ebia · #18 8th December 2008, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by [serious]

What's more important to you:

1. Honest seeking of the truth
2. Happening on the right answer

In other words, do you feel we should encourage others to seek honestly and openly for truth or push them only towards what we believe the truth to be?

One doesn't learn anything by being given the answer - but similarly seeking is pointless in and of itself if it doesn't ultimately lead in the right direction.

It's like asking "given a maths textbook, which is the most valuable - attempting the exercises without exlanation and not knowing if you are doing the right thing, or just reading the answers in the back. Neither accomplishes anything.

[serious] · #19 8th December 2008, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Chesterton

The only reason to search for something is to find that something. Would you find meaning in searching for your car keys when you hadn't lost them? It's a bizarre 19th-20th century idea that searching for something is more important than finding something. I've usually seen that idea expressed by modern scientists. It's a cop-out because they've had their minds blown by reality, and they refuse to accept the obvious answer (God), so they say "the religious answer can't be right, so we'll have to keep looking, looking, looking...so we'll just conclude that actual meaning is found in looking". Nonsense.

Science is, in my opinion, the best example of an area where it's far more important to learn how to observe and search than to simply learn the correct answer. The number of scientific discoveries found through careful observation of fairly mundane matters is huge. Furthermore, if there is one thing science has taught us, it's that reality does not follow what we feel the "obvious" answer is.

Also, little point here, science doesn't concern itself with finding meaning.

OldChurchGuy · #20 8th December 2008, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by [serious]

A couple people seem to be objecting to details of how the question is phrased. Let's try this: Is it better to encourage others to seek the answers for themselves or to encourage them to accept the answers you have found?

Thanks for the clarification.

As a Sunday School teacher for many years with high schoolers and adults I am a strong believer in encouraging others to seek answers for themselves. I am willing to share my beliefs but I try to always emphasize that the exchange of ideas and views is beneficial for all. Similar to this forum.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy