Well I'm no apologist, but none the less, got into a rather feisty debate with my pastor about the doctrine of election recently. He calls himself a "small c" Calvinist. But listening to his reasoning, he's a pretty classic Arminian. The only point we could agree on is perseverance of the saints. So he's challenged me to read Dave Hunt's book against Calvinism. And I'm going to. But I want to give him some good solid literature to help him see some of the misconceptions he has about Calvinism. Anything you all can recommend? I'm sure we'll be sitting down again to discuss this again at some point. He kinda half jokingly said he's going to get me off this "Calvinist cliff" I'm on. It was a very friendly conversation, but I have to admit I get very frustrated in these sorts of talks because I'm not quick on my feet. So any help you guys can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
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Also - just go to www.monergism.com and type the words "Dave Hunt" in the search bar and you'll get a bunch of stuff to come up to help you out.
I'm really surprised your pastor gave you Hunt's book - it is absolutely a horrible defense of Arminiasm as well as atrociously misrepresantive of Calvinsim. If I were an Arminian I wouldn't want that guy speaking for me.
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Hunt is a joke. You should challenge him in return to read Debating Calvinism by Hunt and White.
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"Here is found the most fundamental difference between liberalism and Christianity—liberalism is altogether in the imperative mood, while Christianity begins with a triumphant indicative; liberalism appeals to man's will, while Christianity announces, first, a gracious act of God." —J. Gresham Machen
"Christianity is the sine qua non of the intelligibility of anything." —Cornelius Van Til
The Potters freedom by James White is an excellent refutation of Geisler book (just thought I'd share that if it comes up). BTW there isn't a good book against Calvinism even Geislers Chosen but Free is a horrible book.
btw OSAS is a heresy hope he is not espousing that and not really perseverance of the saints...lots of churches mix the two.
__________________ "Theological liberalism is a different religion, a religion of moralism and uplift, whereas. Christianity is about sin and grace." -John Gresham Machen (1881-1937)
Last edited by ReformedChapin; 8th December 2008 at 11:54 AM.
Thanks for the tips, guys. Yes, I was thinking maybe Debating Calvinism would be a good start. I'd also like to print off some of the reviews on Monergism.com for him to read. I was thinking maybe I'd put the printouts in his book when I give it back so he can look at each page that's referenced for himself. I don't feel comfortable being the one debating him on this. I'd much prefer to find solid references by men to show him.
Originally Posted by ReformedChapin
The Potters freedom by James White is an excellent refutation of Geisler book (just thought I'd share that if it comes up). BTW there isn't a good book against Calvinism even Geislers Chosen but Free is a horrible book.
btw OSAS is a heresy hope he is not espousing that and not really perseverance of the saints...lots of churches mix the two.
Thanks, J. And not to worry, he's not talking about the whole "pray the magic prayer and bang, you're saved forever" heresy. In fact that's one of the things that he really does not like about Rick Warren's teachings.
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It all comes down to total depravity. If he agrees with TD, then it must follow that regeneration is needed before one can place faith in Christ. So find out what he thinks about TD, and if he agrees with the Calvinist view on TD then the battle is already won.
A quick and easy to read book which covers the fundamentals of Calvinism is "Things Which Become Sound Doctrine" by J. Dwight Pentecost. That would be a good read for him.
__________________ "Men imagine that the Most High is moved by sentiment, rather than actuated by principle. They suppose that his omnipotency is such an idle fiction that Satan is thwarting his designs on every side. They think that if he has formed any plan or purpose at all, then it must be like theirs, constantly subject to change. They openly declare that whatever power he possesses must be restricted, lest he invade the citadel of man's "free will" and reduce him to a "machine". They lower the all-efficacious Atonement, which has actually redeemed everyone for whom it was made, to a mere "remedy," which sin-sick souls may use if they feel disposed to; to an "offer" of the Gospel which sinners may accept or reject as they please. The "god" of this twentieth century no more resembles the Supreme Sovereign of Holy Writ than does the dim flickering of a candle the glory of the midday sun."
It all comes down to total depravity. If he agrees with TD, then it must follow that regeneration is needed before one can place faith in Christ. So find out what he thinks about TD, and if he agrees with the Calvinist view on TD then the battle is already won.
A quick and easy to read book which covers the fundamentals of Calvinism is "Things Which Become Sound Doctrine" by J. Dwight Pentecost. That would be a good read for him.
Thanks for the recommendation!
He definitely disagrees with TD. We touched on that. He refuses to accept that man is spiritually dead without the work of the Holy Spirit because mankind does seek after God. I wish I'd made a stronger point about the difference between seeking to have information or inner peace vs. seeking to glorify our creator. But as I said, I'm no debater. He of course completely rejects IG because that infringes on his right to free will. He uses terms like "you put the have to put the Calvinist framework over the Bible to make it work, but it's just not in there". However, for me, I attended Arminian churches, so there was no framework. I came to believe Calvinism long before I even knew what it actually was, simply because what I was being taught did not add up, contradicted themselves, and heaped massive guilt trips on me for things that the Bible told me I was not responsible for.
I think he's already had some preconceived notions about Calvinism, and Hunt's book has an emotional element that appealed to that. I've just completed chapter one and already saw a number of vague arguments, unproven accusations, and plain old falsehoods. He claims Bunyan was not a Calvinist, though anyone can easily discover he certain was simply by reading his work. He quotes Spurgeon's comment on the sufficiency (not efficiency) of Christ's atonement for all and claims that somehow means he denies Limited Atonement, when it isn't even talking about that! And he shares story after story about people who have been hurt or "led astray" by Calvinism (according to him), but the stories often speak more of hyper-calvinism and he doesn't seem to get the difference. He also speaks of how many Calvinists, who he says he respects, urged him not to write the book because of his lack of understanding. Then he goes on (rather bitterly, IMHO) and on about how Calvinism must also be wrong if it's too hard for even him to understand. But I don't get the sense that he's not intellectual enough to understand. It's that he has his mind made up and refuses to understand. I mean seriously, I'm no intellectual, and I can get it. Yes, this is going to be a painful book to endure.
My pastor does respect Sproul. Do you think it's worth loaning him Chosen by God to read? Or is that perhaps too much of an overview?
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...And I don't think he has any interest in reading Calvin. He feels people can interpret those works in so many different ways that it's not useful.
Sounds like you are wasting your time to be honest.
__________________ "Theological liberalism is a different religion, a religion of moralism and uplift, whereas. Christianity is about sin and grace." -John Gresham Machen (1881-1937)
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