So now correlation equals causation? Guess the bible belt has such a high divorce rate because of all the pagans decided to move there for the scenery.
that is more of a protestant problem, considering most protestant churches allow divorce. Churches that do no permit divorce, (RC, EO, OO) have the lowest rates. Look at Italy's divorce rate.
that is more of a protestant problem, considering most protestant churches allow divorce. Churches that do no permit divorce, (RC, EO, OO) have the lowest rates. Look at Italy's divorce rate.
That was not what you stated. You stated that the divorce rate was linked to feminism. Now you are stating the church is the driving force behind the trend.
__________________ No silicon heaven? Where would all of the calculators go?
Kryton
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not, knows no release from little things; Knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain hights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings. How can life grant us boon of living, compensate for dull gray ugliness and pregnant hate unless we dare the soul's dominion? Each time we make a choice, we pay with courage to behold restless day, and count it fair.
Amelia Earhart
that is more of a protestant problem, considering most protestant churches allow divorce. Churches that do no permit divorce, (RC, EO, OO) have the lowest rates. Look at Italy's divorce rate.
Yes, nothing like the threat of eternal damnation to force unhappy couples to stay together no matter how abusive or harmful the relationship might be.
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"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." - Albert Einstein
Biblical teaching is absolutely not sexist. Biblical history lived out by flawed humans and the continuing behavior of equally flawed bible believers, on the other hand.......
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DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report; moreover, they have spoken untruths; secondarily, they are slanders; sixth and lastly, they have belied; thirdly, they have verified unjust things; and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
Thee is a big difference between what the Bible says and what some people think the Bible says.
I'm afraid you family and friends are telling you what they have been told, but not what the Bible actually says.
ah... lets find some of those sexist bible versis shale we?
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
ah... lets find some of those sexist bible versis shale we?...
....so no sexism in the bible then?
If you have read what people are saying, the claim is not that there isn't sexism in the bible but that the bible's teachings are not sexist
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DOGBERRY on posters:
They have committed false report; moreover, they have spoken untruths; secondarily, they are slanders; sixth and lastly, they have belied; thirdly, they have verified unjust things; and, to conclude, they are lying knaves
That was not what you stated. You stated that the divorce rate was linked to feminism. Now you are stating the church is the driving force behind the trend.
Oh it isn't just feminism. I said feminism is the leading cause of divorce. Doesn't mean there are other factors.
I don't consider protestant denominations "the church" either. They are ecclesiastical groups that privately interpret the bible to their own liking, which is no wonder why divorce, bc, women preachers, homosexuality, and abortion are allowed in allot of these ecclesiastical settings. This is one reason the bible should not be privately interpreted.
The bible is sexist according to people who already have a modernistic view and definition of what they think sexism is. For instance, a modernistic worldly woman would think its sexist, but a traditional woman would think its righteous and good. Try reading the bible without those 21st century pre-sets and you will find that the "sexist" verses are simply about honoring ones spouse the way God intended.
Yes, nothing like the threat of eternal damnation to force unhappy couples to stay together no matter how abusive or harmful the relationship might be.
see, this is the exact problem of our selfish generation..marriage is about love and sacrifice, not selfishly thinking about your worldly happiness 24/7. You live for God, not for yourself. Its sad how immature and selfish people are when it comes to divorce.
Last edited by CreedIsChrist; 21st November 2009 at 12:23 PM.
Oh it isn't just feminism. I said feminism is the leading cause of divorce. Doesn't mean there are other factors.
Indeed, like not having divorce outlawed. Not making people feel guilty for normal human urges. Not requiring them to get married before they try having sex for the first time.
Originally Posted by CreedIsChrist
I don't consider protestant denominations "the church" either. They are ecclesiastical groups that privately interpret the bible to their own liking, which is no wonder why divorce, bc, women preachers, homosexuality, and abortion are allowed in allot of these ecclesiastical settings. This is one reason the bible should not be privately interpreted.
Yes, the world was much better when the church had the power to tell people what to think and how to believe, on pain of death. Do you understand why the dark ages where called the dark ages?
Originally Posted by CreedIsChrist
The bible is sexist according to people who already have a modernistic view and definition of what they think sexism is. For instance, a modernistic worldly woman would think its sexist, but a traditional woman would think its righteous and good. Try reading the bible without those 21st century pre-sets and you will find that the "sexist" verses are simply about honoring ones spouse the way God intended.
Yes, that is kind of the point isn't it? As human thought has progressed the bible has shown it's bias being written by a society that saw women as property. Saying that those women who buy in to this paradigm buy in to this paradigm is hardly a significant revelation.
Originally Posted by CreedIsChrist
see, this is the exact problem of our selfish generation..marriage is about love and sacrifice, not selfishly thinking about your worldly happiness 24/7. You live for God, not for yourself. Its sad how immature and selfish people are when it comes to divorce.
Yes, how dare those people want to be happy? What on earth is the matter with them?
__________________ No silicon heaven? Where would all of the calculators go?
Kryton
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not, knows no release from little things; Knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain hights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings. How can life grant us boon of living, compensate for dull gray ugliness and pregnant hate unless we dare the soul's dominion? Each time we make a choice, we pay with courage to behold restless day, and count it fair.
Amelia Earhart
Indeed, like not having divorce outlawed. Not making people feel guilty for normal human urges. Not requiring them to get married before they try having sex for the first time.
Justification based solely on human "urges" hardly constitutes an argument. Or do you justify a murderers urge to kill an innocent person simply because he has human urges to do so?
Yes, the world was much better when the church had the power to tell people what to think and how to believe, on pain of death. Do you understand why the dark ages where called the dark ages?
I'm sure people in the 30th century will be calling our 20th century similar names. Again your simply viewing the past with a pre-conceived 21st century mindset and don't understand the mindset and economy during that time. Try not to scapegoat
Yes, that is kind of the point isn't it? As human thought has progressed the bible has shown it's bias being written by a society that saw women as property. Saying that those women who buy in to this paradigm buy in to this paradigm is hardly a significant revelation.
And what really is true progression? A person who lives for God and lives in a state of grace bound for eternal happiness in heaven, or a modernistic/secular person who has small limited worldly pleasures(or what they "think" is pleasure) that will all be in vain once dead and separated from God forever?
Who truly is progressing?
Yes, how dare those people want to be happy? What on earth is the matter with them?
What do you really know about true happiness or what it is? Do you honestly think temporary worldly pleasures constitute true happiness? Ever notice a yin/yang type of reaction when people in this world constantly seek pleasure? It tends to make them worse in the end. Why is that?
Justification based solely on human "urges" hardly constitutes an argument. Or do you justify a murderers urge to kill an innocent person simply because he has human urges to do so?
Seriously? You are equating sex with murder? Very well, if I must refute this. You have it backwards, no one is justifying this based on urges, we say it is allowed by default. The current idea in secular law is that in order to maximize the freedom of everyone we do not allow things based on reasons, we disallow based on reasons. As such since we see no good reason to bar consensual sex between two adults there are no laws against it. Since I , nor anybody else I know, do not want to be murdered we don't allow people to run around killing others.
Originally Posted by CreedIsChrist
I'm sure people in the 30th century will be calling our 20th century similar names. Again your simply viewing the past with a pre-conceived 21st century mindset and don't understand the mindset and economy during that time. Try not to scapegoat
Try not to scapegoat? You mean like blaming women not wanting to be treated like chattel for the current divorce rate?
Yes, I am viewing it with my 21st century mindset. What mindset do you think I should be viewing it with? I am sure people a millennium from now will wonder about some of our choices, as they should. As we progress as a people we are tending towards more and more freedoms.
How does that in any way change the fact that the church dominated dark age thinking to the point of putting people to death who dared to promote such horrible ideas as equality or heliocentrism?
Originally Posted by CreedIsChrist
And what really is true progression? A person who lives for God and lives in a state of grace bound for eternal happiness in heaven, or a modernistic/secular person who has small limited worldly pleasures(or what they "think" is pleasure) that will all be in vain once dead and separated from God forever?
Who truly is progressing?
The second one obviously.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Obviously we are going to differ on this question because of our different world views. Personally I will side with the ones who believe that being tied to a choice you made when young, sometimes with disastrous results, for no other reason then tradition is foolish.
Originally Posted by CreedIsChrist
What do you really know about true happiness or what it is? Do you honestly think temporary worldly pleasures constitute true happiness? Ever notice a yin/yang type of reaction when people in this world constantly seek pleasure? It tends to make them worse in the end. Why is that?
Ah, so now we have different types of happiness. Regular old happiness and "True happiness" (tm). Let me ask you something, do you believe others should be forced to follow the path that you have taken to find "True happiness"? Is it possible that others have their own idea of what happiness is and they have just as much of a right to pursue that as you do?
How do those seeking pleasure end up worse in the end? I have seen those that seek pleasure to the exclusion of thinking of the possible consequences being worse off, but not those who seek pleasure in an intelligent fashion.
__________________ No silicon heaven? Where would all of the calculators go?
Kryton
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not, knows no release from little things; Knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain hights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings. How can life grant us boon of living, compensate for dull gray ugliness and pregnant hate unless we dare the soul's dominion? Each time we make a choice, we pay with courage to behold restless day, and count it fair.
Amelia Earhart
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