divorce rates are not nessesarily a good indicator of immorality.
Agreed. I really don't understand how staying in a bad marriage is a positive moral choice.
Sometimes getting a divorce is a more moral thing to do then stay
From all the data I've been reviewing, religiosity doesn't really play a huge role any way. Stats from the Barna group aren't doing Christians any favors since divorce is highly correlated with income, education, age of marriage, etc.
It reminds me of Paul saying "if an unbeliever leaves, let them leave. God wants us to live in peace." except that wasn't quoted word for word.
It reminds me of my born-again friend's recent divorce. Their marriage was so violent. It was just sickening. They actually beat eachother, called the police repeatedly, etc. It was such a trashy marriage, religious or not. The only thing they could do was separate and divorce. With that said, they married too young, lived in poverty, were uneducated, etc. All the markings for trouble in a marriage in the US.
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What you haven't seen in this thread are the many instances of gender equality and women being treated as equals in terms of the gospel.
Somewhere back there I believe it was noted that the NT is a mixed bag when it comes to gender equality, though explorations of specific verses haven't come up. I seem to recall that Jesus' attitude was generally more egalitarian; Timothy's wasn't, for instance. It's as if the writers of the NT couldn't quite make up their mind either way.
It's interesting to see which verses any given Christian cites to bolster their beliefs, since it can really go both ways.
Originally Posted by LJSGM
divorce rates are not nessesarily a good indicator of immorality.
True that. I suppose if divorce is a sign of anything it's a sign that marriages just don't always last, for whatever reasons. Sometimes it really is more merciful to put a marriage out of its misery and let the parties in question move on.
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It is a fool's prerogative to utter truths that no one else will speak. --Neil Gaiman, Sandman 3:3:6
Somewhere back there I believe it was noted that the NT is a mixed bag when it comes to gender equality, though explorations of specific verses haven't come up. I seem to recall that Jesus' attitude was generally more egalitarian; Timothy's wasn't, for instance. It's as if the writers of the NT couldn't quite make up their mind either way.
It's interesting to see which verses any given Christian cites to bolster their beliefs, since it can really go both ways.
One has to realize that the NT isn't a book of laws.
We christians are to do what is right while being led by the Holy Spirit, using the scriptures as a guideline or a reference point.
When 1 tim says "he must be a man of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." These are guidelines for us to follow. It is not stating a law against women being in one of these positions, for we do see a woman deacon in the bible, as well as an elder, and quite possibly an apostle.
The only other series of verses you are probably refering to from tim are these:
1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
And these are hard verses for everyone, even on the other side of the issue, for they know as well as I that women are not saved through bearing children. The reason it does not make sense is that it has been badly translated.
One has to realize that the NT isn't a book of laws.
We christians are to do what is right while being led by the Holy Spirit, using the scriptures as a guideline or a reference point.
When 1 tim says "he must be a man of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money." These are guidelines for us to follow. It is not stating a law against women being in one of these positions, for we do see a woman deacon in the bible, as well as an elder, and quite possibly an apostle.
The only other series of verses you are probably refering to from tim are these:
1 Timothy 2
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
And these are hard verses for everyone, even on the other side of the issue, for they know as well as I that women are not saved through bearing children. The reason it does not make sense is that it has been badly translated.
God is able to preserve his word. And there are many women who have no problems with the verses in timothy. We find that most very pious women were naturally very quiet and lived in submission. Many of the female saints would not represent at all the typical modern woman of today. Childbearing does have a part in salvation history because it has to do with God's justice regarding the sin of Eve.
Again if a woman today has a problem with the Word, then it has to do with what she was taught by secular society. And todays secular society is entrenched in anti-biblical culture. But a true women who has the spirit of God in her heart has no problem with those verses and accepts them as second nature. A married christian woman "knows' that her husband is head of the household and she is the supporter, childbearer and keeper of the home. All of this would be almost second nature to a woman who truly has the spirit of God with her.
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Again if a woman today has a problem with the Word, then it has to do with what she was taught by secular society. And todays secular society is entrenched in anti-biblical culture. But a true women who has the spirit of God in her heart has no problem with those verses and accepts them as second nature. A married christian woman "knows' that her husband is head of the household and she is the supporter, childbearer and keeper of the home. All of this would be almost second nature to a woman who truly has the spirit of God with her.
I wonder if there is a correlation between the oppression of women for thousands of years (not considered true citizens, not allowed to vote, not given full equal rights) and the ideology of the verses in 1 Timothy and in Corinthians?
I would assume there is!
I believe the mindset of individuals who do not want women to speak in the church or have authority over men is quite oppressive and damaging. I don't totally agree with some of the radical feminism in today's society but I think there should be a healthy balance here.
A woman, like a man, should not be strictly confined to one role in life...it should be based on the strengths and qualifications of that individual.
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I wonder if there is a correlation between the oppression of women for thousands of years (not considered true citizens, not allowed to vote, not given full equal rights) and the ideology of the verses in 1 Timothy and in Corinthians?
I wouldn't doubt it.
I don't tend to think that cultural misogyny has come about because of some big centuries-long male conspiracy or anything like that. It just ended up that way, probably for a number of reasons. Spend generations oppressing half your population in one way or another, and it just sort of ends up permeating a culture, popping up in religion, law, custom, what have you.
Some times and places have been more egalitarian than others. The idea of full equality for women in all areas of life is a relatively recent one, however; the modern feminist movement is only a couple of hundred years old. And of course it sends some men into absolute conniptions: gender equality tips the balance of power away from men and towards women. If one comes from a mindset where one gender must have power over the other, any shift towards equality probably looks like a shift towards matriarchy, even if that isn't the end goal.
I am of the mind that matriarchy is no better than patriarchy, and I'd rather see overall gender equity. But if I were a sexist man, gender equity wouldn't be in my best interests, because I wouldn't be able to lord it over women anymore. I'd probably freak out about it too.
Anyhoo. Riane Eisler, Merlin Stone, and Marija Gimbutas all have some interesting ideas about the history of sexism and misogyny. So does John Stuart Mill. Mary Wollstonecraft and Elizabeth Cady Stanton are also good reads.
Just a bit o'rambling, thanks for reading.
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By the way I found this video on youtube and this preacher said that one of the reasons why women want to be preachers is to get "a piece of the pie." Since preachers make a lot of money, women know that and go after it...
Religious figures will say almost anything to justify those sexist verses in the Bible....but that is just so low!
The Bible is not sexist, it merely recognizes that there are different roles for women and for men. Men don't have monthly issues nor carry babies to term. They are supposed to provide for their women and take care of them. If everyone did what they were supposed to do things would run so much smoother.
It seems like every time I interact with my parents and their friends from the baptist church they attend, I get an idea for a new thread...
They were having a conversation about how the bible says that women should not be leaders of men. They expounded upon the situation by saying the following...
Women should not be allowed to lead a church or any group within a church other than a womens bible study.
Women should not speak up during church services.
Women should not be allowed to be supervisors or managers in a place of employment.
Women should never have the final say at home when the husband is present.
They went one to explain to me that a violation of any of the things listed above is not only blatant disregard for God's natural order, but is a shame and disgrace to the men who reported to a female leader (in any capacity)
They provided the verses to support it and everything checked out so the Bible does in fact teach this...
I don't believe the bible, but for those who do, do you think these teaching should be taken literally in this modern day in age?
Do you feel these teachings are ethical??
um that's not what my KJV says.. however the parts that these are intrepreted from don't elucidate... so there is definitely room for intrepretation.
Is it sexist? I can't really say yes as there is not much that is actually against women- however there are definite roles for both Genders and for ages. I don't think sexist has the right connotations.
(altho I guess that would depend on how one decides to intrepret those passages).
Is it unethical? no... but then whose ethics are you going to be using?
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