Rapture

HisdaughterJen · #41 13th December 2008, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Super Kal

favoritism within the Church is an extremely relevant issue, especially when it comes to Revelation...

people are taught today in Churches all around the world that even though millions of Christians died for Christ in the past, we won't have to, because all of us are going to be snatched away before any of this happens, because somehow, we're better than the Christians who died before us.

Now, why would you say that? Jesus taught it.

Jhn 11:25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
Jhn 11:26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Besides, death is not the end or the worst thing that could happen to a person.

the pre-trib rapture doctrine is nothing but a disgusting heresy

Be careful. You wouldn't want to call God's plan a disgusting heresy. There might actually be a tidbit or two of information that you are unaware of at the moment that will show you the truth.

Edit to add: One of those tidbits is that the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins when the sun/moon darken/stars fall which is after the "tribulation" and before the reign of the anti-christ/devil, judgment and wrath. The Day of the Lord is not 24 hours long...its a millenium. The first few years are rather sticky, though.

Rev 6:12I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
...

Rev 6:17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"

Joe 2:31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

Mat 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

.. the only things it promotes is fear and favoritism within Christianity... it teaches that we should fear persecution, even though Christ says we will have it in our lives, no matter if it be great or small

I do not fear persecution. I have been persecuted for Christ. I have left home and family for Christ. I was beaten and physically tortured for believing in Christ. It's not about avoiding pain or persecution, it's about waiting expectantly for the blessed hope.

we some of us live? yes, of course... but I'm betting most of us will die for following Christ.

I'll bet that most of the church is already physically dead.

it's going to ultimately test our faith and love for Him, and a lot of us will have to make a decision: stand up for Christ and possibly be killed for it, or follow the world and worship the beast.

The choice has already been made by born again of the Spirit believers. It's a no-brainer.
The rapture is not about avoiding pain and persecution. It's about the fulfillment of the New Covenant in God's plan.

you have to ask yourself: am I willing to let myself be tortured and killed for following Christ?

Of course. There are worse things than death...namely hell...and there are better things than life here...namely paradise/New Jerusalem.
You see, for born again believers, the choice has already been made. What more can satan possibly do to us?

The church (born again believers) was given authority over the devil. We have to be removed before the devil can reign.

Luk 10:19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Super Kal · #42 13th December 2008, 01:06 AM

Jen, I'm not saying that God's plan is not a disgusting heresy... I disagree with you on a pre-wrath rapture when it comes to wrath, because the Israelites were protected from the plagues, but they were still on the earth and still went through it while the Egyptians suffered... they were protected when the angel of death passed over them because of the lamb's blood, btu they were still there for it... personally, I see that as symbolic for the when Jesus Christ bled for us on the cross, and the blood of Christ not only makes us new in Him, but protects us from the Second Death, and His wrath.

but a "pre-trib" rapture I wholeheartedly disagree with, because it does NOT teach the word of God. There is an enormous difference between your belief (pre-wrath), and what Darby taught (pre-trib)

and I agree with you, Jen, but I don't look forward to the rapture... I look forward to His Second Coming, and i completely agree with most of what you said... I'm not afraid of death, and no Christian should... Christ overcame death, and through Him, we overcome it as well, and are no longer appointed His wrath... but in doing so, we are promised persecution, whether it be great or small.

a physical death is not the worst thing... the thing I consider the worst is the second death and the first resurrection, as mentioned in revelation. To me, THAT is God's ultimate wrath upon the wicked and ungodly... as followers of Christ this is what we are no longer appointed to

I'm not afraid of either persecution or death, and no other Christian should... having said that though, I know that there is a chance that I might die for Christ when we face the Great Tribulation.

Knowing now that I will face it, I have come to terms with it, and let God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven... if He calls me to flee, I will flee. If He calls me to die for Him, I will, as Phil. 1:21 says "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

Glory to God for His will, love, and plan for me, whatever that plan may be.

Super Kal · #43 13th December 2008, 01:20 AM

I just want to make something clear...

I don't hate you nor condemn any of those who think differently than I do... I love you with everything that I am, because all of you are either my brother or my sister in Christ, and I have nothing but love. It is this pre-trib doctrine that I utterly despise, because I have blindly defended it all of my life, and it has brought me absolutely nothing but grief and pain. John 8:32 says "and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”... these past 7 months of my life have drawn me closer to God than the past 25 years of my life. I hold to His Word and His Word alone, and I do my best every day to try and live by it.

there is no way I can hate any of you... the Holy Spirit within me will not let me be hateful.

Ajax 777 · #44 13th December 2008, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ

show it with scripture....

Easy.

We see that the twelve sons of Israel are revered in the house of
the New Jerusalem, where the Elders will sit...here:

Revelation 21:12 - "It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels;
and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel."

And again, look here:

Matthew 19:28 - "And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me,
in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne,
you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

By this, we see that the Twelve Apostles, whom the LORD Himself said
would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel,
are revered in the FOUNDATION of the New Jerusalem, where the twenty-four will sit: (sit...on what? )

Revelation 21:14 - "And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones,
and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it would seem kind of odd that these twenty-four men
were honored in such a way so as to be seen by all in the New Jerusalem,
where God Himself and Christ will be, but a completely DIFFERENT twenty-four
would be regarded as "Elders" among the rest.

Look up the word, "elder." It means one who is older,
or in the same way revered as greater, wiser, etc.

An NT saint, which would descriptively define you and myself,
in addition to all those who have believed and died in Him since His Ascension, is by no means an "Elder."
The Jews came first, Scripture also tells us that.

Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ

OT saints will not be glorified till 45 days after the 2nd coming dan 12:2,11-12

Mmm...would you mind better illustrating your hermeneutics by which you arrive at that assumption?

All I see is a mention of how it would be at a time Christ had not yet been revealed to men,
and so it was, up till His resurrection.

But I have even better proof:

What you say here goes directly against what Paul wrote in his first Epistle to the Thessalonians.

Observe:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 - "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord,
will not precede those who have fallen asleep."

Feel free to rebut.

HisdaughterJen · #45 13th December 2008, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Super Kal

Jen, I'm not saying that God's plan is not a disgusting heresy... I disagree with you on a pre-wrath rapture when it comes to wrath, because the Israelites were protected from the plagues, but they were still on the earth and still went through it while the Egyptians suffered...

I know you weren't...but you think that a "pre-trib" rapture teaching is when you might not have all the facts....yet.

Tidbit #2:

The rapture is a resurrection and catching away of believers, correct?

Isa 26:19But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
Isa 26:20Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you (hinting of Rosh Hashanah, if I recall correctly, when doors of heaven are shut) ; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer.

but a "pre-trib" rapture I wholeheartedly disagree with, because it does NOT teach the word of God. There is an enormous difference between your belief (pre-wrath), and what Darby taught (pre-trib)

Well, I'm unique in that I stick to the Word of God regardless of what other people teach. The Bible is clear that we all endure tribulation. The church will not be around for the 7th seal judgment and wrath which includes the reign of the beast, the trumpets and the bowls.

and I agree with you, Jen, but I don't look forward to the rapture... I look forward to His Second Coming, and i completely agree with most of what you said... I'm nto afraid of death, and no Christian should... Christ overcame death, and through Him, we overcome it, and are no longer appointed His wrath... but in doing so, we are promised persecution, whether it be great or small.

The rapture is the beginning of the 2nd coming. People will be eating, drinking, marrying, etc when suddenly, the church is removed, the sun/moon go dark when God destroys the gog invaders, and the trumpets/beasts/bowls happen. ALL of that is the return of the Lord (and the beginning of the Day of the Lord/Day of wrath/millenium) before His physical coming with the angels a few years later.

a physical death is not the worst thing... the thing I consider the worst is the second death, as mentioned in revelation. To me, THAT is God's ultimate wrath upon the wicked and ungodly... as followers of Christ that is what we are no longer apppointed to

I'm not afraid of either persecution or death, and no other Christian should... having said that though, I know that there is a chance that I might die for Christ when we face the Great Tribulation.

What you are calling "the great tribulation" is the judgment and wrath of God (the beasts, the trumpets, the bowls) which born again believers are not appointed to suffer. Biblically, the great tribulation mentioned in Rev 7 is the last 2000 years of wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom that all believers have endured. It ends when the sun/moon darken/stars fall and the devil is allowed to reign FOR GOD's PURPOSES during the judgment and wrath. Rev 2 & 3 say that it's a time of testing.

Knowing now that I will face it, I have come to terms with it, and let God's will be done, on earth as it is in heaven... if He calls me to flee, I will flee. If He calles me to die for Him, I will, as Phil. 1:21 says "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain"

Glory to God for His will, love, and plan for me, whatever that plan may be.

If God has shown you that you will die as a martyr, then that is between you and Him. I believe the Bible says that there is a special crown for martyrs....

Super Kal · #46 13th December 2008, 01:33 AM

you bring up a good point, Jen...

Isaiah 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

at first, I thought this was mentioning a "pre-trib" rapture at first...

but when I was reading and studying it, breaking it down, and letting it speak for itself, I found out something that I didn't know...

moment

H7281
רגע
rega‛
From H7280; a wink (of the eyes), that is, a very short space of time: - instant, moment, space, suddenly.

a wink (of the eyes)... the moment (lol, no pun intended... okay, maybe a little :p) I read that, 1 Corinthians 15:52 came to my mind... and what does that verse tell us?

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Super Kal · #47 13th December 2008, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen

What you are calling "the great tribulation" is the judgment and wrath of God (the beasts, the trumpets, the bowls) which born again believers are not appointed to suffer. Biblically, the great tribulation mentioned in Rev 7 is the last 2000 years of wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom that all believers have endured. It ends when the sun/moon darken/stars fall and the devil is allowed to reign FOR GOD's PURPOSES during the judgment and wrath. Rev 2 & 3 say that it's a time of testing.

Jen, the Day of the Lord is not the Great Tribulation. Joel 2:28-32 and Acts 2:16-21 makes that perfectly clear.

that day comes after the sun turns to darkness, and the moon to blood...
even Peter knew that, because he quoted that verse

HisdaughterJen · #48 13th December 2008, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Super Kal

I just want to make something clear...

I don't hate you nor condemn any of those who think differently than I do... I love you with everything that I am, because all of you are either my brother or my sister in Christ, and I have nothing but love. It is this pre-trib doctrine that I utterly despise, because I have blindly defended it all of my life, and it has brought me absolutely nothing but grief and pain. John 8:32 says "and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”... these past 7 months of my life have drawn me closer to God than the past 25 years of my life. I hold to His Word and His Word alone, and I do my best every day to try and live by it.

there is no way I can hate any of you... the Holy Spirit within me will not let me be hateful.

Likewise! It's ok to have strong beliefs and defend them and prove them. That doesn't change the fact that we are His children and we love Him and each other! We're all in search of the truth.

I will never go on a personal attack if we disagree. Our difference of opinion is not with each other, personally...it's with the sequence of events in God's plan.

I really think that you might not have considered all the facts just yet in the sequence of events. I see it this way:

1. Tribulation (wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution, martyrdom of the last 2000 years)
2. Rapture & Sun/moon darken/stars fall (day of the Lord begins)
3. Judgment and wrath (beasts, trumpets, bowls)
4. Jesus comes with the angels

And, tell me if I'm wrong, but you see it this way:

1. Tribulation (reign of the beast)
2. bowls of wrath
3. Jesus comes with the angels, then rapture in the air and come right back down to earth.

Super Kal · #49 13th December 2008, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen

If God has shown you that you will die as a martyr, then that is between you and Him. I believe the Bible says that there is a special crown for martyrs....

I'm not saying He has... all I'm simply saying is that whatever He calls me to do when that time comes, I will do it.

HisdaughterJen · #50 13th December 2008, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Super Kal

you bring up a good point, Jen...

Isaiah 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

at first, I thought this was mentioning a "pre-trib" rapture at first...

but when I was reading and studying it, breaking it down, and letting it speak for itself, I found out something that I didn't know...

moment

H7281
רגע
rega‛
From H7280; a wink (of the eyes), that is, a very short space of time: - instant, moment, space, suddenly.

a wink (of the eyes)... the moment (lol, no pun intended... okay, maybe a little :p) I read that, 1 Corinthians 15:52 came to my mind... and what does that verse tell us?

"in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Well, I imagine that it will seem like a moment, twinkling of an eye, when the dead are raised and we are all changed and go into our "rooms" until wrath is over because we'll be in heaven. Wouldn't you say?

The point that convinced me it was about the rapture was the part about the dead being raised and then told, "Go, my people...".