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21st December 2008, 01:33 AM
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Reps: 40,143,535,222,134,136 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ  so who are the one dressed in white called elders before the Great TRib.. rev 4-5
please by scripture state who they are not....
It appears that Joshua is one of them according to Zech 3.
They are there before Jesus opens the scroll and white robes are given to the Bride in seal #5 of the scroll.
We know that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in white at the transfiguration.
Check this out (as well as Zech 6) ~ Zec 3:1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. Zec 3:2The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Zec 3:3Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. Zec 3:4The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, " See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you." Zec 3:7"This is what the Lord Almighty says: ' If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. Zec 3:8" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.
The "Branch" is Jesus so Joshua is actually Joshua.
They are "symbolic of things to come"....according to God Himself...which, I would think, means the church. |
21st December 2008, 01:29 PM
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Reps: 92,159,541,136 (power: 92,159,555) | | Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen It appears that Joshua is one of them according to Zech 3. Dan 12:2 states their are 2 different types of resurrections ... : live or destruction But the OT saints under law were looking for a resurrection after the 2nd coming of Christ ... 45 days after to be glorified Dan 12:11-12 ezekiel 37:12,14 give more detail
They are there before Jesus opens the scroll and white robes are given to the Bride in seal #5 of the scroll. YET in Rev 4 is before the seals are opened... according to rev 5:8-9 states that the elders are telling Jesus the Son of God that He is worthy to open the 1st Seals of judgement
We know that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in white at the transfiguration.
Check this out (as well as Zech 6) ~ Joshau is Jesus the Son of God here... Zec 3:1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. Zec 3:2The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Zec 3:3Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. Zec 3:4The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, " See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you." Zec 3:7"This is what the Lord Almighty says: ' If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. Zec 3:8" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.
The "Branch" is Jesus so Joshua is actually Joshua.
They are "symbolic of things to come"....according to God Himself...which, I would think, means the church. Joshau is waiting for the 2nd coming and 45 days after the 2nd coming.... Elders please by scripture who they are not.... not OT saints ... waiting Dan 12:11-12,ect ect not Churubs ... not rev 4:7 elders and churubs not the 144,000 ... rev 14:1-3 not angels.... rev 7:11 Notice the things happening in rev 4:4-5 promised to the church... Rev 3:21... fulfilled in rev 4:4 , rev 3:5 fulfilled in rev 4:4 , rev 5:11=Gal 3:16, Holy Spirit is back in heaven = Jn 14:16-20, 2 thes 4:7 promised 1 peter 2:9= fulfilled rev 5:10 |
21st December 2008, 01:55 PM
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Reps: 40,143,535,222,134,136 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ Dan 12:2 states their are 2 different types of resurrections ... : live or destruction But the OT saints under law were looking for a resurrection after the 2nd coming of Christ ... 45 days after to be glorified Dan 12:11-12
ezekiel 37:12,14 give more detail
YET in Rev 4 is before the seals are opened... according to rev 5:8-9 states that the elders are telling Jesus the Son of God that He is worthy to open the 1st Seals of judgement Joshau is Jesus the Son of God here...
Joshau is waiting for the 2nd coming and 45 days after the 2nd coming....
Elders
please by scripture who they are not....
not OT saints ... waiting Dan 12:11-12,ect ect
not Churubs ... not rev 4:7 elders and churubs
not the 144,000 ... rev 14:1-3
not angels.... rev 7:11
Notice the things happening in rev 4:4-5
promised to the church...
Rev 3:21... fulfilled in rev 4:4 ,
rev 3:5 fulfilled in rev 4:4 ,
rev 5:11=Gal 3:16,
Holy Spirit is back in heaven = Jn 14:16-20, 2 thes 4:7
promised 1 peter 2:9= fulfilled rev 5:10
Well, you missed it.
Zechariah had a vision of JOSHUA (NOT JESUS because of the last line in the passage) in Zech 3 where he is standing before an angel in filthy clothes. Satan is accusing him and Joshua is given a sinless "white robe".
Look very carefully at what God tells Joshua: Zec 3:7"This is what the Lord Almighty says: ' If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. Zec 3:8" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.
The "Branch" is Jesus, not Joshua. Joshua is given is white robe and is seated in the court of the Lord (BEFORE the Branch is brought in), which as God said, is symbolic of things to come...namely the church.
You say that Old Testament saints are not resurrected until 45 days after the 2nd coming of Christ...and that may very well be the case for most...but you are forgetting this:
1. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus when he was transfigured.
2. Jesus said that Abraham saw "his day and was glad".
3. Matt 27: Mat 27:52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. Mat 27:53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
So, Joshua, for one, is most certainly not waiting for the resurrection after the 2nd coming of Christ as Zechariah 3 makes very clear.
God can put people where he wants us, when he wants us there. Apparently, Moses, Elijah and Joshua are all in heaven with God...and there's several more.
Therefore, the 24 elders who are wearing white robes and seated in the court of the Lord are OT saints of God's choosing including Joshua. They are symbolic of things to come...namely the white-robed great multitude, the church, who is given her white robes and taken to the throne of God in Seal #5 of Rev 6 after the nearly 2000 year great tribulation which is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom which are seals 1-4. All of this is before the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins when the sun/moon darken/stars fall which is when satan is cast down for his 42 month reign.
Last edited by HisdaughterJen; 21st December 2008 at 02:03 PM.
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21st December 2008, 08:59 PM
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Reps: 92,159,541,136 (power: 92,159,555) | | Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ Dan 12:2 states their are 2 different types of resurrections ... : live or destruction But the OT saints under law were looking for a resurrection after the 2nd coming of Christ ... 45 days after to be glorified Dan 12:11-12
ezekiel 37:12,14 give more detail
YET in Rev 4 is before the seals are opened... according to rev 5:8-9 states that the elders are telling Jesus the Son of God that He is worthy to open the 1st Seals of judgement Joshau is Jesus the Son of God here...
Joshau is waiting for the 2nd coming and 45 days after the 2nd coming....
Elders
please by scripture who they are not....
not OT saints ... waiting Dan 12:11-12,ect ect
not Churubs ... not rev 4:7 elders and churubs
not the 144,000 ... rev 14:1-3
not angels.... rev 7:11
Notice the things happening in rev 4:4-5
promised to the church...
Rev 3:21... fulfilled in rev 4:4 ,
rev 3:5 fulfilled in rev 4:4 ,
rev 5:11=Gal 3:16,
Holy Spirit is back in heaven = Jn 14:16-20, 2 thes 4:7
promised 1 peter 2:9= fulfilled rev 5:10 Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen Well, you missed it.
Zechariah had a vision of JOSHUA (NOT JESUS because of the last line in the passage) in Zech 3 where he is standing before an angel in filthy clothes. Satan is accusing him and Joshua is given a sinless "white robe".
Look very carefully at what God tells Joshua: Zec 3:7"This is what the Lord Almighty says: ' If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. Zec 3:8" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.
The "Branch" is Jesus, not Joshua. Joshua is given is white robe and is seated in the court of the Lord (BEFORE the Branch is brought in), which as God said, is symbolic of things to come...namely the church.
You say that Old Testament saints are not resurrected until 45 days after the 2nd coming of Christ...and that may very well be the case for most...but you are forgetting this:
1. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus when he was transfigured.
2. Jesus said that Abraham saw "his day and was glad".
3. Matt 27: Mat 27:52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. Mat 27:53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
So, Joshua, for one, is most certainly not waiting for the resurrection after the 2nd coming of Christ as Zechariah 3 makes very clear.
God can put people where he wants us, when he wants us there. Apparently, Moses, Elijah and Joshua are all in heaven with God...and there's several more.
Therefore, the 24 elders who are wearing white robes and seated in the court of the Lord are OT saints of God's choosing including Joshua. They are symbolic of things to come...namely the white-robed great multitude, the church, who is given her white robes and taken to the throne of God in Seal #5 of Rev 6 after the nearly 2000 year great tribulation which is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences, persecution and martyrdom which are seals 1-4. All of this is before the Day of the Lord/Day of Wrath begins when the sun/moon darken/stars fall which is when satan is cast down for his 42 month reign. Yet dan 12:2,11-12 disagrees with your accessment as does 1 cor 15:23-24 where it states there are three glorifications to life |
21st December 2008, 09:41 PM
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Reps: 40,143,535,222,134,136 (power: 0) | | Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ Yet dan 12:2,11-12 disagrees with your accessment
as does 1 cor 15:23-24 where it states there are three glorifications to life
Well, it's not really my assessment. God showed Zechariah what happened to Joshua in heaven...he was given new clothes and told that he could be seated in the courts of heaven with others.
Let's have a look at Daniel and 1 Corinthians: Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
That appears to be describing the GWT judgment, doesn't it? Dan 12:11And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
There's nothing about a resurrection there in verse 11 & 12. It was the angel's answer to Daniel's question, "what shall be the end of these things". 1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cr 15:23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cr 15:24Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Well, Brother in Christ, I don't know what to tell you. Enoch was taken bodily. Elijah was taken bodily. Moses body was hidden by God. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. The bodies of many holy people came out of their graves when Jesus rose. Zechariah was shown that Joshua was given new clothes and seated in a heavenly court with several others who "are symbolic of things to come" according to God, Himself.
The sheep/goat judgment or the GWT judgment is at the end of the millennium according to Rev 20.
From Christ to the GWT judgment, there are four resurrections in between:
1. those who rose when Christ rose.
2. the resurrection and rapture
3. the two witnesses
4. the martyrs at the hands of the beast when Christ appears.
God's reasons for giving Joshua a seat in His heavenly court as well as several others are apparently because they are "symbolic of things to come"...namely the church.
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ' If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, thenyou will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. Zec 3:8" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come:... The same thing that happened to Joshua in Zech 3 is going to happen to the church. The only people given white robes in Revelation is the Bride. If God wants to take Enoch to heaven or Elijah to heaven or hide Moses' body and use him as a man anointed to serve God in heaven or take some Old Testament believers and place them on thrones in his court...then shouldn't we keep our minds open to the possibilities and believe that God is just and has His reasons? In my own mind, Zechariah 3 proves that Joshua is one of the 24 elders, wearing white and on a throne in heaven...and it proves that there are others there as well....and that they are symbolic of what is going to happen to the church who are given white robes in seal #5 and are snatched to the throne of God and are seen standing there as the great multitude of Rev 7.
Last edited by HisdaughterJen; 21st December 2008 at 09:49 PM.
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21st December 2008, 10:51 PM
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if you take the word for truth then you would have to say that Enoch was not taken bodily for the word says that no flesh can enter the kingdom, does it not. But then on the other hand with God all things are possible and if He so chose to take Enoch bodily He could because He is God and makes the rules. This is why as I posed for you before, and you can see it to a degree. The two witnesses are not individually two men but two divisions of men, Jew and Gentile. It makes more sense if you can see it in that light. The tow witnesses are symbolic of Jew and gentile. You see the symbolism where it agrees with what you want to believe but the truth is not always agreeable with what we believe it to be.
I gave you a true time line with those under the altar but you choose to ignore the fact that it said said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
The vengance could not be taken until all had been killed by the anti Christ and His minions. You place the emphasis on the revenge where I placed the emphasis on the time line. One could not occur until the other had been completed . Who is it that are killed for their testimony. The Church. I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints.
This is talking about the false church which Satan will head taking the lives of the true believers. If the church is gone who is He killing. His own demons.? And why?
Common sense says that he is killing those whom He hates, the church.
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21st December 2008, 11:08 PM
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21st December 2008, 11:21 PM
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Reps: 92,159,541,136 (power: 92,159,555) | | Originally Posted by A Brother In Christ Yet dan 12:2,11-12 disagrees with your accessment
as does 1 cor 15:23-24 where it states there are three glorifications to life Originally Posted by HisdaughterJen Well, it's not really my assessment. God showed Zechariah what happened to Joshua in heaven...he was given new clothes and told that he could be seated in the courts of heaven with others.
Let's have a look at Daniel and 1 Corinthians: Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 1 Jn 3:10, Matt 25:32,41 Judgement of Sheep and goats is not the Great white throne... rev 19:20 Beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire yet Satan bound for a thousand years... Rev 20:2 Rev 20:8 Gog and Magog judgement then Great White throne Judgement... Rev 20:11-15, 2 peter 3:10-12
That appears to be describing the GWT judgment, doesn't it? Dan 12:11And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
There's nothing about a resurrection there in verse 11 & 12. It was the angel's answer to Daniel's question, "what shall be the end of these things". Within the context of the verse please read Dan 12:2 1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cr 15:23But every man in his own order: #1 Christ the firstfruits; afterward #2 they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Cr 15:24Then #3 [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. Who are the firstfruits... heb 12:23 notice first born ones different than to the spirits of just men made perfect , romans 8:23
Well, Brother in Christ, I don't know what to tell you. Enoch was taken bodily. Elijah was taken bodily. Moses body was hidden by God. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration. The bodies of many holy people came out of their graves when Jesus rose. Zechariah was shown that Joshua was given new clothes and seated in a heavenly court with several others who "are symbolic of things to come" according to God, Himself.
The sheep/goat judgment
or the GWT judgment is at the end of the millennium according to Rev 20.
From Christ to the GWT judgment, there are four resurrections in between:
1. those who rose when Christ rose. not glorified
2. the resurrection and rapture
3. the two witnesses
4. the martyrs at the hands of the beast when Christ appears. 5 OT saints Dan 12:2,11-12 45 days after 2nd coming
God's reasons for giving Joshua a seat in His heavenly court as well as several others are apparently because they are "symbolic of things to come"...namely the church.
This is what the Lord Almighty says: ' If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, thenyou will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. Zec 3:8" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come:... The same thing that happened to Joshua in Zech 3 is going to happen to the church. The only people given white robes in Revelation is the Bride.
Tribulational saints that where beheaded.. rev 20:4 .. rev 6:9-11
different than Rev 4:4, rev 5:8-10
If God wants to take Enoch to heaven or Elijah to heaven or hide Moses' body and use him as a man anointed to serve God in heaven or take some Old Testament believers and place them on thrones in his court...then shouldn't we keep our minds open to the possibilities and believe that God is just and has His reasons?
In my own mind, Zechariah 3 proves that Joshua is one of the 24 elders, wearing white and on a throne in heaven...and it proves that there are others there as well....and that they are symbolic of what is going to happen to the church who are given white robes in seal #5 and are snatched to the throne of God and are seen standing there as the great multitude of Rev 7. rev 5:11..... = gal 3:16
Last edited by A Brother In Christ; 21st December 2008 at 11:37 PM.
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22nd December 2008, 04:43 PM
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6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."
did Christ start to ascend, stop, come back down for 7 years, then go up all the way, ABIC?
No, He did not. |
22nd December 2008, 06:44 PM
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Reps: 92,159,541,136 (power: 92,159,555) | | Originally Posted by Super Kal Acts 1:6-11
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore
the kingdom to Israel?"
Are you a JEW? 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.
10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes,
11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."
did Christ start to ascend, stop, come back down for 7 years, then go up all the way, ABIC?
No, He did not. 2nd coming .... Rapture very different ... We go up to Him | | |
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